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Toxicity within the community is ruining this game.

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  • Toxicity within the community is ruining this game.

    So,

    I've been playing dota for about 4 years (2 years of Dota 1) and since the very begining of Dota 2 I was thrilled to see what the game was turning into. Today with all the hype I think Valve has stayed quiet for too long. We need ways to improve the MM system and ways to punish toxic players in a way of rehabilitating (I honestly don't think it's possible) them or banning them for good.
    I used to play more then 5 games per day, last month I was playing 2 or 1 per day and right now I'm almost done with playing. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world (far from that) or that I don't make mistakes, but there's something really wrong with the MM system (Normal and Ranked). Last month my brother and I (both lower than 4k MMR) were matched against a guy almost 5k MMR with a party of five and we were 2 parties. In the normal MM is even worse, the number of arrogant/ self-centered people I run into is absurd. Normaly the games that I play are over before de 30min mark, sometimes even before de 20min mark, either we dominate or are completely destroyed. In the last 50 games I've played I think I probably had 5 good games, the other games fit in the description before. IMO, Valve needs to intervene as soon as possible in order to make this a "happier" commuity. League of Legends has implemented "The Tribunal" a while ago and I can say I got much better, cause people with reapetedly disruptive gameplay attitude are send to The Tribunal to be judge by the comunnity (guilty or not guilty) and then punished acordingly to how many times he has already been sentenced.

    Another problem I believe needs to be addressed is the Ranked rewarding system. Right now if you win the match you get around 25 MMR otherwise you lose around 25 MMR. Where is the inovative system they promised? It was said that winning, of course, would matter, but your performance should have a weight in the final score. Honestly, I've never seen someone lose a match and earn MMR, NEVER. There were games when I dominated my lane and lost the game and lost MMR, I've been completely useless on other games and yet I got 25 points cause my team won. Not to talk about the really good games, where you have huge swings on XP and Gold graphics, and yet, despite playing really good one team will lose MMR cause they lost.

    This is just my humble opinion about the game right now, I think Dota has a lot of space and time to grow to something better, but right I'm taking a break cause the game is actually causing me more stress than joy.
    I'd like to apologize for any grammar mistakes as english is not my first language.

    Thank you very much if you read till the end and let's hope for a better comunnity

  • #2
    You are playing an online game, If you so want to not get toxiced, play with your friends or man up and try to cooperate with your team. If somone flaming to someone there is always a reason, try to not mute and talk it out. Otherwise you just lost.
    Man! You find courage in yourself to search games on EU servers, you try to be nice to russians, you struggle to resist the urge to punch them in the face, and for what? For some ranked points. #NotWorth

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by p1e2d3r4o View Post
      So,

      I've been playing dota for about 4 years (2 years of Dota 1) and since the very begining of Dota 2 I was thrilled to see what the game was turning into. Today with all the hype I think Valve has stayed quiet for too long. We need ways to improve the MM system and ways to punish toxic players in a way of rehabilitating (I honestly don't think it's possible) them or banning them for good.
      I used to play more then 5 games per day, last month I was playing 2 or 1 per day and right now I'm almost done with playing. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world (far from that) or that I don't make mistakes, but there's something really wrong with the MM system (Normal and Ranked). Last month my brother and I (both lower than 4k MMR) were matched against a guy almost 5k MMR with a party of five and we were 2 parties. In the normal MM is even worse, the number of arrogant/ self-centered people I run into is absurd. Normaly the games that I play are over before de 30min mark, sometimes even before de 20min mark, either we dominate or are completely destroyed. In the last 50 games I've played I think I probably had 5 good games, the other games fit in the description before. IMO, Valve needs to intervene as soon as possible in order to make this a "happier" commuity. League of Legends has implemented "The Tribunal" a while ago and I can say I got much better, cause people with reapetedly disruptive gameplay attitude are send to The Tribunal to be judge by the comunnity (guilty or not guilty) and then punished acordingly to how many times he has already been sentenced.

      Another problem I believe needs to be addressed is the Ranked rewarding system. Right now if you win the match you get around 25 MMR otherwise you lose around 25 MMR. Where is the inovative system they promised? It was said that winning, of course, would matter, but your performance should have a weight in the final score. Honestly, I've never seen someone lose a match and earn MMR, NEVER. There were games when I dominated my lane and lost the game and lost MMR, I've been completely useless on other games and yet I got 25 points cause my team won. Not to talk about the really good games, where you have huge swings on XP and Gold graphics, and yet, despite playing really good one team will lose MMR cause they lost.

      This is just my humble opinion about the game right now, I think Dota has a lot of space and time to grow to something better, but right I'm taking a break cause the game is actually causing me more stress than joy.
      I'd like to apologize for any grammar mistakes as english is not my first language.

      Thank you very much if you read till the end and let's hope for a better comunnity
      The biggest difference there is that LoL actually gives you an advantage for time/games played so you don't encourage smurfing, DotA CAN'T do that since it would destroy the balance of the game (P2W is shit) so it basically encourages smurfing and with that the whole ban/punishment thing is a lot less effective, it still bothers the most, but it's not gonna be that much effective unless you ban people (for real, no low prio) and when people get banned their DotA 2 inventory also gets locked up for trade, that would be effective imo, but I don't really know if it would make the community "happier" (Shmendrich would now be whining about being banned versus just being muted all the time)

      I agree on the MM note, Valve needs to realize it's not the same to put 3+2 people than to put a full party nor even is the same to put 1+1+1+1+1 (with a lot higher mm) against 4+1 but I don't know how to fix it without limiting the queue numbers (an with that increasing the queueing times) but I don't like "The Tribunal" (at all, too much trolls)

      On Ranked rewards it's basically the same as all sports, you lose -> you get nothing, right now I think they have the whole "performance bars" thing frozen (not even working on it) but it's a good idea to add a score besides the win/lose thing, the only issue here is that it needs to be well thought so it's not as bad as it was in HoN (oh my team [lost | are retarded] so I'm gonna buy wards or ks to boost my stats)

      I do understand the part of stress>joy and imo it's actually better if you stop playing for a while since that frustration is exponential until you just leave it be and enjoy the game (which is kind of hard to do if you're already frustrated and keep being matched with idiots), I personally avoid to play more than 2 games in a row (or more than one if I got mad on it) since I found that if I keep playing I -most of the time- don't enjoy it at all

      Later

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by knurlhelm View Post
        The biggest difference there is that LoL actually gives you an advantage for time/games played so you don't encourage smurfing, DotA CAN'T do that since it would destroy the balance of the game (P2W is shit) so it basically encourages smurfing and with that the whole ban/punishment thing is a lot less effective, it still bothers the most, but it's not gonna be that much effective unless you ban people (for real, no low prio) and when people get banned their DotA 2 inventory also gets locked up for trade, that would be effective imo, but I don't really know if it would make the community "happier" (Shmendrich would now be whining about being banned versus just being muted all the time)

        I agree on the MM note, Valve needs to realize it's not the same to put 3+2 people than to put a full party nor even is the same to put 1+1+1+1+1 (with a lot higher mm) against 4+1 but I don't know how to fix it without limiting the queue numbers (an with that increasing the queueing times) but I don't like "The Tribunal" (at all, too much trolls)

        On Ranked rewards it's basically the same as all sports, you lose -> you get nothing, right now I think they have the whole "performance bars" thing frozen (not even working on it) but it's a good idea to add a score besides the win/lose thing, the only issue here is that it needs to be well thought so it's not as bad as it was in HoN (oh my team [lost | are retarded] so I'm gonna buy wards or ks to boost my stats)

        I do understand the part of stress>joy and imo it's actually better if you stop playing for a while since that frustration is exponential until you just leave it be and enjoy the game (which is kind of hard to do if you're already frustrated and keep being matched with idiots), I personally avoid to play more than 2 games in a row (or more than one if I got mad on it) since I found that if I keep playing I -most of the time- don't enjoy it at all

        Later
        Slightly off topic but could you find a single dota 2 player that would prefer shorter queue times to more balanced games?
        http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1398477 RMM Whiners Read Please

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bravo2zero View Post
          Slightly off topic but could you find a single dota 2 player that would prefer shorter queue times to more balanced games?
          russians who tick every language and every server and then after going 0/5 they cyka and leave

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bravo2zero View Post
            Slightly off topic but could you find a single dota 2 player that would prefer shorter queue times to more balanced games?
            Short answer: Anyone that has to queue for more than 10 minutes

            Long-ish Answer: I know what you mean, I would rather have better balance coupled with longer queue times too but they did limit the queues a while ago and the ammount of people complaining (I have to que for 5+ minutes and some prick declines and the cycle starts again for 2+ minutes) so yeah, I would like it (since I usually queue while surfing the internet) but a lot of kids wouldn't and sadly that's the noisiest croud (remember remember the 1st of november?) and for the same reason that's the only crowd Valve cares about
            Last edited by knurlhelm; 08-18-2014, 08:15 PM. Reason: 5 year old grammar

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with most everything the OP said, and from my personal opinion I'd say its 4 main things Valve needs to do
              • Make brackets, there should not be some of the so heavy differences we have of skill on some games, I know its for the sake of finding games fast, but personally I prefer to wait longer for a decent 40-60 mins game, than to get a hyped poor balanced game that lasts 10-20 minutes just to find it in less than 3 minutes.
              • Fix the report system I dont know if the tribunal thing is the best, or something similar, what I know is that the current system sucks. The punishments should be harsher, there should be clear community rules, and it should not be automated
              • Duplicate(or triplicate) the amount of games needed to access ranked, this would tie together with harsher punishments, if abuse/cheating can lead you to be permabanned, people will be less likely to do bullshit, and if they do, they will at least be out of it for a while.
              • Improve the MM system Due to the team nature of DotA I understand its very difficult to properly assess the skill of a player, however I also know that Valve is neglecting DotA, the advances/updates are at snail's pace and with little to no testing (Which could be an excuse for slow development)


              However there is something that I think was a BIG step, W3C became big and spawned gold like crazy thanks to the Map editor, and I think it was a pretty smart move for valve to release a development tool for mods played in DotA. Im excited to see how manipulable it is (It should be at the very least same as W3C, hopefully better)
              Make a NON automated report system.
              I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
              Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
              The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

              Comment


              • #8
                no actual punishment is the root of all problem

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by knurlhelm View Post
                  The biggest difference there is that LoL actually gives you an advantage for time/games played so you don't encourage smurfing, DotA CAN'T do that since it would destroy the balance of the game (P2W is shit) so it basically encourages smurfing and with that the whole ban/punishment thing is a lot less effective, it still bothers the most, but it's not gonna be that much effective unless you ban people (for real, no low prio) and when people get banned their DotA 2 inventory also gets locked up for trade, that would be effective imo, but I don't really know if it would make the community "happier" (Shmendrich would now be whining about being banned versus just being muted all the time)

                  I agree on the MM note, Valve needs to realize it's not the same to put 3+2 people than to put a full party nor even is the same to put 1+1+1+1+1 (with a lot higher mm) against 4+1 but I don't know how to fix it without limiting the queue numbers (an with that increasing the queueing times) but I don't like "The Tribunal" (at all, too much trolls)

                  On Ranked rewards it's basically the same as all sports, you lose -> you get nothing, right now I think they have the whole "performance bars" thing frozen (not even working on it) but it's a good idea to add a score besides the win/lose thing, the only issue here is that it needs to be well thought so it's not as bad as it was in HoN (oh my team [lost | are retarded] so I'm gonna buy wards or ks to boost my stats)

                  I do understand the part of stress>joy and imo it's actually better if you stop playing for a while since that frustration is exponential until you just leave it be and enjoy the game (which is kind of hard to do if you're already frustrated and keep being matched with idiots), I personally avoid to play more than 2 games in a row (or more than one if I got mad on it) since I found that if I keep playing I -most of the time- don't enjoy it at all

                  Later
                  I get your points, but some I don't think you got it right.
                  First of all, League of Legends is not a Pay to Win game since the only thing you can buy with money are cosmetics and champions.
                  Second, The Tribunal used to have a lot of trolls, but trolls get bored (and judging people in that thing is horribly boring), so I don't believe someone would be banned because of trolls. Also, if you are in the tribunal in the first place you have to be reported many times, not just once and to be convicted as guilty takes a lot of people not just 10 votes.
                  In the other hand here we don't have any kind of harsh punishment for these guys. Trolls don't care if they are LP.

                  About the queueing time, I wouldn't mind at all to wait 10 minutes to play a actually good game than to have a 1 min wait for an usual sh*tty game.

                  The Ranked rewards is not an ideia that I'm suggesting, it's something they promissed and selled to the whole community. The advertised like it was going to be something out of this world. They actually said that you could earn MMR points even if you lose since you've played well. I don't believe creating a code for reading in game info is even close than the game code itself.
                  Last edited by p1e2d3r4o; 08-19-2014, 04:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shmendrich View Post
                    I agree with most everything the OP said, and from my personal opinion I'd say its 4 main things Valve needs to do
                    • Make brackets, there should not be some of the so heavy differences we have of skill on some games, I know its for the sake of finding games fast, but personally I prefer to wait longer for a decent 40-60 mins game, than to get a hyped poor balanced game that lasts 10-20 minutes just to find it in less than 3 minutes.
                    • Fix the report system I dont know if the tribunal thing is the best, or something similar, what I know is that the current system sucks. The punishments should be harsher, there should be clear community rules, and it should not be automated
                    • Duplicate(or triplicate) the amount of games needed to access ranked, this would tie together with harsher punishments, if abuse/cheating can lead you to be permabanned, people will be less likely to do bullshit, and if they do, they will at least be out of it for a while.
                    • Improve the MM system Due to the team nature of DotA I understand its very difficult to properly assess the skill of a player, however I also know that Valve is neglecting DotA, the advances/updates are at snail's pace and with little to no testing (Which could be an excuse for slow development)


                    However there is something that I think was a BIG step, W3C became big and spawned gold like crazy thanks to the Map editor, and I think it was a pretty smart move for valve to release a development tool for mods played in DotA. Im excited to see how manipulable it is (It should be at the very least same as W3C, hopefully better)
                    Well, you put it into the words I couldn't. That's actually some good ideias.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What's your mmr and why is there no mute button on your dota 2 client.

                      Are you trying to restrict human behaviour or are you just stupid?
                      I am sure everyone would want to take a behaviour check from Riot aswell!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hmm,

                        Sticks only approach to encouraging better behavior and the rapid and easy way to make new accounts. These are essential features of the game, intentional in their design. The developers by virture of design encourage, bad behavior.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shmendrich View Post
                          • Make brackets, there should not be some of the so heavy differences we have of skill on some games, I know its for the sake of finding games fast, but personally I prefer to wait longer for a decent 40-60 mins game, than to get a hyped poor balanced game that lasts 10-20 minutes just to find it in less than 3 minutes.
                          • Fix the report system I dont know if the tribunal thing is the best, or something similar, what I know is that the current system sucks. The punishments should be harsher, there should be clear community rules, and it should not be automated
                          • Duplicate(or triplicate) the amount of games needed to access ranked, this would tie together with harsher punishments, if abuse/cheating can lead you to be permabanned, people will be less likely to do bullshit, and if they do, they will at least be out of it for a while.
                          • Improve the MM system Due to the team nature of DotA I understand its very difficult to properly assess the skill of a player, however I also know that Valve is neglecting DotA, the advances/updates are at snail's pace and with little to no testing (Which could be an excuse for slow development)
                          1) First of all stop watching competitive games and think pubs should last for hours. Pubs with comp games have absolutely nothing in common. Also bare in mind that few years ago games used to last ~1 hour but this has dramatically dropped to around 30-40 mins. Higher gold/min, cooldowns and many many more stuff that frog changed just to drop the average game duration. People should also realise that this is the nature of the game. A storm spirit for example that destroyed the enemy midder will most likely snowball his entire team to victory. Games nowdays that that go beyond 60 mins is because the winning team was too scared (or they just wanted to farm some more) to walk highground when they had the advantage.

                          2) I really dont care. No matter what the punishment will be, its gonna apply after the game has finished and most likely ruined. Manual mute is just fine.

                          3) Dont know, I rarely get matched with smurfs lately.

                          4) Strangely I find solo matchmaking close to fine. There are still some people that should not be playing on their current rating but other than that its fine. Now, games with parties in suck quite alot due to rating discrepancy but thats a different story.

                          On topic, trash talking is part of the online gaming experience. I dont know when most of you started playing online videogames but trashtalking was always there even on local lans between friends. If you are getting so emotional for a couple of words a guy from the other side of the world typed you in a game, I can assure you you will have serious problems with your life later on.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't think punishment is the proper way to deal with toxicity. Look at League of Legends, that game has far more toxicity in it than Dota 2, and yet they are banning accounts a lot. Apparently their methods are backfiring. You want to clean up the game? Good for you. Try to do it by rewarding players rather than punishing them.

                            Riot even made a promise to focus on something other than punishing, but recently in the past week they have gone back on their word as they ban thousands of additional accounts. Players are going to be left without a reason to play when they no longer have access to their favorite champions, and they'll have to grind for them all over again. Punishments do more harm than good, and the same is true for Dota 2. If you put a guy that was messing around in ranked games into low priority, you stall his decline to his true ranking. But what else can you do?
                            Last edited by hoveringmover; 08-23-2014, 01:28 PM.
                            I will mercilessly add to my ignore list anyone that makes an incredibly annoying signature.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SabotaZ View Post
                              1) First of all stop watching competitive games and think pubs should last for hours. Pubs with comp games have absolutely nothing in common. Also bare in mind that few years ago games used to last ~1 hour but this has dramatically dropped to around 30-40 mins. Higher gold/min
                              Games are shorter now? a bit yeah, but not as much as you claim.

                              And Im not talking about tournament games, Im talking about W3C games by a bot made by a single guy. Games with 6k+ lock took ages to fill (sometimes more than 40 mins) but they were totally worth it, super balanced, and normally very long. regardless of the duration of the games now days I can tell you that most games are poorly balanced, in very few games I feel like it was a fair challenge for both teams. The games that are exciting and balanced seem to be more random luck than the rule (As OP claims, 5 out of 50 MAYBE)

                              , cooldowns and many many more stuff that frog changed just to drop the average game duration. People should also realise that this is the nature of the game. A storm spirit for example that destroyed the enemy midder will most likely snowball his entire team to victory. Games nowdays that that go beyond 60 mins is because the winning team was too scared (or they just wanted to farm some more) to walk highground when they had the advantage.

                              2) I really dont care. No matter what the punishment will be, its gonna apply after the game has finished and most likely ruined. Manual mute is just fine.
                              First of if you dont care why do you even get in to the subject? Its so annoying to discuss with people who have no opinion and only criticise other people suggestions
                              Second: Im not talking only about mutes, but also about intentional game ruining and feeding, a decent system would detect both those people (yeah after they ruin maybe 30 games or less) But then it would stop them, so instead of ruining 400 they would ruin only 30.

                              3) Dont know, I rarely get matched with smurfs lately.
                              My point is that IF a system where people can be permabanned is implemented, this would be important to keep them out of ranked for a good while. Lets say you ban an intentional game ruiner, right now he has to play 150 games or less (which again, he could just do by a bot) And be back in ranked for more trolling. So we could make it more difficult by increasing the amount of games required, and perhaps requiring WINS instead of games (300 wins maybe)
                              4) Strangely I find solo matchmaking close to fine. There are still some people that should not be playing on their current rating but other than that its fine. Now, games with parties in suck quite alot due to rating discrepancy but thats a different story.
                              t
                              Well the problem with solo MM is that you still get ranked with parties, what does it means? That you can get either:
                              A party in your team training a noob which you will have to bear (Which is the lesser of 2 evils, because in this case the noob at least will MAYBE listen to the people who are teaching him)
                              And the worst case scenario in which opposite team has a party training a noob, and hence you get a solo noob in your team who will listen to no one and tell you "play your own game! dont tell me what to do!" at any suggestion you make

                              On topic, trash talking is part of the online gaming experience. I dont know when most of you started playing online videogames but trashtalking was always there even on local lans between friends. If you are getting so emotional for a couple of words a guy from the other side of the world typed you in a game, I can assure you you will have serious problems with your life later on.
                              100% Right, sadly there are so many crybaby kids who think DotA 2 should be a My Little Pony community for them to hug rainbows and eat muffins. 90% of the trashtalk they want to punish in DotA is normal in such game.

                              ...HOWEVER I also agree that there is a 10% of trash talkers and trash talk that goes a little bit too far. And I think those should definetively be punished and maybe even banned if they are repeated offenders.
                              Make a NON automated report system.
                              I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                              Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                              The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

                              Comment

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