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Dodging and how we should look at it

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  • Dodging and how we should look at it

    Dodging games has been a huge problem for pro players since they get into 40 minute queues and then when they finally find a match, someone dodges cause they recognize said pro and don't want to lose.

    This has been remedied to an extent ex: changing names or changing avatars. (singsing and bulldog have changed their names a lot, maybe for trollz but probably cause they don't want to get dodged too)

    What my personal experience with dodging is that, take this scenario for example:

    I win +25 points in a game. I stomp X player, "Bob" on the other team and am happy that I played hard and earned my points. Cool deal, let's queue another solo ranked. As soon as I load in, guess who's matched on my team now? You guessed right! It's ol' feeder Bob from last game. Do I have a right to dodge this guy if I personally laned against him and thought he wasn't on par with the skill level in the game and would possibly feed/ lose the game for us? Valve apparently doesn't think so.

    Scenario 2:

    I queue into a match and am sitting at the loading screen. X player "Joe" joins and immediately says something along the lines of "omg, i just failed last game. Don't ever play drunk u guys." Do I have the right to dodge player without penalty? Valve doesn't think so.

    The first time I dodge "Bob," I get an 8 minute wait time. The second time I dodge (Joe), I get 30 minutes of no queue. I understand this system has the potential to be abused (which is why valve upped the penalty in the first place) but these are logical scenarios which players SHOULD BE allowed to dodge people who may be detrimental to their mmr. I have never been matched with any pros so I don't have a reason to dodge good people, but only intentional throwers, feeders, and people who don't care about ranked at all.

    What are your thoughts on this? I'm specifically putting this in the community forum because the problem is something that has to do with dodging a part of the community.
    Originally posted by Kryil-
    Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

  • #2
    No, dodging is not okay. And no, thats not how we should "Look at it". If ANYTHING the only thing that valve should do is not match you for 24 hours with players you just reported. If you reported someone its unlikely you will have any level of cooperation with them in the next game simply because of the grudge and because of whatever happened last game.

    Personally I think the system should be even more harsh. First dodge is okay to be short because maybe a friend came by or something, but second dodge within the same 24 hours should lead to at least 24 hours wait. There's literally NO REASON for a player to dodge that often unless he is: Having a tech issue (which he should fix before trying to play), trying to cheat the system, trolling, or simply a whiny bitch who blames everyone else for his own screwups.

    I love how you want to rationalize and change the words for "I want to be able to cheat the system to raise my MMR above what it should really be, waste the time of 9 other people each time I do it, and I dont want to be punished for it"
    Last edited by Shmendrich; 04-08-2015, 02:41 PM.
    Make a NON automated report system.
    I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
    Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
    The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

    Comment


    • #3
      No. You never have the right to dodge games. Just like you never have the right to leave games. If you want to avoid random teammates that "could" be bad (Your first example is wrong IMO. How do you know that this player will play badly again? You don't. You speculate.) you should just play with a full team of people you know they are good enough (for you).
      Spoiler: 

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Shmendrich View Post
        No, dodging is not okay. And no, thats not how we should "Look at it". If ANYTHING the only thing that valve should do is not match you for 24 hours with players you just reported. If you reported someone its unlikely you will have any level of cooperation with them in the next game simply because of the grudge and because of whatever happened last game.

        Personally I think the system should be even more harsh. First dodge is okay to be short because maybe a friend came by or something, but second dodge within the same 24 hours should lead to at least 24 hours wait. There's literally NO REASON for a player to dodge that often unless he is: Having a tech issue (which he should fix before trying to play), trying to cheat the system, trolling, or simply a whiny bitch who blames everyone else for his own screwups.

        I love how you want to rationalize and change the words for "I want to be able to cheat the system to raise my MMR above what it should really be, waste the time of 9 other people each time I do it, and I dont want to be punished for it"
        How am I trying to unfairly raise my mmr? Half the games I lose is cause someone feeds. I don't mind if you passively lane and give them more farm than you're supposed to, just don't feed. This guy fed and then threw by feeding courier. Do you think that I'm in the wrong? What is your mmr and what did you calibrate at?

        Also the point of me leaving is so people like this don't waste my time. I'm fairly sure my team wouldn't want to play with him either of they were in the previous match. You are just blindly assuming. If he plays like trash, that's still wasting peoples' time.

        Put yourself in my shoes for scenario 1 and think it over. Would you take the guaranteed -25?
        Last edited by Duquesne; 04-08-2015, 02:58 PM.
        Originally posted by Kryil-
        Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by katsaroulhs View Post
          No. You never have the right to dodge games. Just like you never have the right to leave games. If you want to avoid random teammates that "could" be bad (Your first example is wrong IMO. How do you know that this player will play badly again? You don't. You speculate.) you should just play with a full team of people you know they are good enough (for you).
          You are right in saying I don't know how the randoms will play, but this guy is less random to me than the other 8. Also, leaving 15 minutes in and dodging before the match are different scenarios. Don't put them in the same context.

          About the speculation. I actually followed up on his account before writing this post and he lost 2 games after the match where I dodged him. Go figure.
          Last edited by Duquesne; 04-08-2015, 03:06 PM.
          Originally posted by Kryil-
          Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

          Comment


          • #6
            +10 to the OP

            You are totally correct. The issue is not the dodger, but the system itself.

            Dodging is produced by a flawed system which teams you up with people you reported. (I am talking about the average dodger, not the 0.00001% who dodge pro players, this is ofc wrong).

            Think it this way, if you ready up and someone on your team dodges, THANK THEM. They prob just saved you 25 MMR. In your team is either a feeder/flamer/idiot etc who they don't want to play with.

            Dodgers save your MMR and sacrfice their own play time to do so.

            THEY ARE HEROES!
            http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1398477 RMM Whiners Read Please

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Duquesne View Post
              How am I trying to unfairly raise my mmr?
              Everyone has to deal with drunk partners, dumb players and angry trolls. Most the people deal with it because thats the way the game is. They win some games because there's a feeder in the other team and they lose some because there's a feeder in theirs. That creates a balance which is only broken by your skill or lack of it.

              If you ONLY play games where you KNOW you have advantage, you are cheating and raising above to an MMR you dont belong to. Because you are not raising because you are skilled, you are raising in the MMR by abusing the system and not losing a game that other player with your same skill or even higher would lose.

              Put yourself in my shoes for scenario 1 and think it over. Would you take the guaranteed -25?
              Last game you won it because he was in the other team, he fed to oblivion and then maybe he should not be in this rank, hence those 25 points you won you dont deserve them. You won because a player is above his rank (probably because he dodges and then gets to games he cant handle) So losing them is just fair.

              Also the point of me leaving is so people like this don't waste my time
              You dont waste your time but you waste the time of 9 other people. If you dont think that alone is worth punishing....well.

              And come to think of it a better punishement for dodging would be to make the game lost only for the dodger and not for anyone else in the game. That would stop 99% of the dodging.

              Don't put them in the same context.
              You are not in the same context as people who leave 15 minutes in to the game mate, you are worse. You intentionally fuck other people to try and pretend to be something you are not. And even worse, you cheat the system, raise your MMR, and then you are the noob fucking games for people who actually have the skill to be in those ranks (because even playing the games with drunk people in their team, they still win enough games to be in that rank, something you are not capable of doing).
              Last edited by Shmendrich; 04-08-2015, 03:35 PM.
              Make a NON automated report system.
              I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
              Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
              The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

              Comment


              • #8
                You may not abuse it but abusers will. The extreme case of dodging is to dodge until you are matched against a friend/account of yours. Then there is the issue where you wasted the time of up to 9 other players. This is really annoying if your MMR is quite high where you queue for a long time.

                If we weigh the pros and cons my answer would be clear. Dodging should be penalized. I personally never dodged a game and never will. If there was a bad game and I want to be extra sure not to be matched with or against him again I take a break and queue later again.
                James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
                * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
                Spoiler: 


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
                  You may not abuse it but abusers will.
                  Every dodging abuser will say he is not an abuser..Like this guy they tend to say they will only dodge flammers and intentional feeders! so we shouldnt be punished!...but in reality all they want is an easy way to cheat the system, and saying so would sound really bad so they just go for the "Oh I'm innocent and I only dodge when EVERY player would dodge" so...yeah

                  I personally never dodged a game and never will. If there was a bad game and I want to be extra sure not to be matched with or against him again I take a break and queue later again.
                  Same, as simple as waiting 3-5 minutes before queuing again.

                  And personally I have had awful arguments with a player that fed like hell in a game, I get them next game and they turn out to be a big asset to the team.
                  Last edited by Shmendrich; 04-08-2015, 03:53 PM.
                  Make a NON automated report system.
                  I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                  Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                  The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you ONLY play games where you KNOW you have advantage, you are cheating and raising above to an MMR you dont belong to. Because you are not raising because you are skilled, you are raising in the MMR by abusing the system and not losing a game that other player with your same skill or even higher would lose.
                    I don't KNOW I have the advantage 100%. I know that I have a disadvantage 100% if I see the same feeder. Fuck logic though.

                    you are not in the same context as people who leave 15 minutes in to the game mate, you are worse. You intentionally fuck other people to try and pretend to be something you are not. And even worse, you cheat the system, raise your MMR, and then you are the noob fucking games for people who actually have the skill to be in those ranks (because even playing the games with drunk people in their team, they still win enough games to be in that rank, something you are not capable of doing).
                    I'm not in the same context as I'm not wasting peoples' time at the pick screen. fuck logic though right? I play plenty of games with drunk people and idiots. But recently I've been getting these people a lot more than the usual bearable number. Nice assuming though. Everyone knows the mm system is flawed. Your white knighting is so blatant and disgusting. I don't try to pretend to be something I'm not lol. Did I say that I am a 6k mmr god who deserves to be on the leaderboards? I know where I belong in Dota and I know where you belong in the regard to this argument. You couldn't help but insult me in every post? In fact, looking back in other threads, your cancerous nature is glaring and needs to be fixed.

                    Nice sig btw. You would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun match instead of a 10 second retard stomp. In a way, dodging is the same thing. You dodge a feeder, the system puts you in 8 minute wait time, you get a team without the feeder. It could be worse, it could be better- but without the feeder.

                    Your ad hominem attacks are also very blatant to where you stand as part of the community. I assume you are either a really good player or a 2k scrub who never has to deal with anything since you don't care about your rank.

                    If you are so knowledgeable and good, link your dotabuff and tell me your mmr. If having a discussion where not insulting the other posters who don't see eye to eye is too difficult for you, we can just look at pure stats.
                    Last edited by Duquesne; 04-08-2015, 06:09 PM.
                    Originally posted by Kryil-
                    Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just a second!..... I'll first say something that will make my post a lot more valid "Fuck logic fuck logic! fuck logic" Lets see if it works okay? even if what I say has nothing to do with that :3 (at least you seem to think it works)

                      My DotA buff is public, if you are too dumb to search it by yourself then I'm very sorry for you.
                      Originally posted by Duquesne View Post
                      I don't KNOW I have the advantage 100%. I know that I have a disadvantage 100% if I see the same feeder. Fuck logic though.
                      Says who? You can equally dodge good players in the enemy team and stay if you see good players in your team, either way you are cheating the system
                      And does dodging games in which you are at a disadvantage doesnt gives you a rank advantage? When you just agreed that your dodging kept you 25 points up from that game (or so you believe)


                      I'm not in the same context as I'm not wasting peoples' time at the pick screen. fuck logic though right?
                      You do it intentionally, knowingly that you are wasting their time just to try and fake an score you dont deserve. Players who quit after 15 mins or so do it for a variety of reasons that are not as shit as yours, they are not trying to cheat, and the worst any player can do in any game is cheat. Cheaters are the scum of any game, so yeah, please dont you dare compare yourself to rage quitters. Its an insult for them.

                      Everyone knows the mm system is flawed. Your white knighting is so blatant and disgusting.
                      Are you dumb or did they not teach you to read in primary school? Where did I defend the MM system or say its not flawed? You even mentioned my signature and now you say that I defend the way the matching system works? Does that make any sense in your brain? Because it doesnt in reality. I will quote myself in caps since you didnt seem to read properly:
                      Everyone has to deal with drunk partners, dumb players and angry trolls. Most the people deal with it because thats the way the game is.
                      Yeah, the MM system is flawed, but good players deal with it, unlike what you think, there's very few scum players like you who try their best to trick the system. (Mostly thanks to the punishment)

                      In a way, dodging is the same thing.
                      No its not the same, you dont dodge looking for balance, you dodge looking for easy matches and running away from the difficult ones....If you saw that feeder in the enemy team again, I'm 100% you wouldnt dodge him.

                      This post is just about you blatantly begging for the system to change so that you can cheat without being punished for it. And saying "The way we should see dodging" Is not gonna make people suddenly realize that your cheating should be allowed at the cost of their time and more realistic ranks.
                      Last edited by Shmendrich; 04-08-2015, 06:34 PM.
                      Make a NON automated report system.
                      I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                      Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                      The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My DotA buff is public, if you are too dumb to search it by yourself then I'm very sorry for you.
                        a7026871596f0953ea2b48b6140abc07.png

                        shit im so stupid sorry derp. i surry i dun kno u by anyfing other than ur devduto name so sry. pls forgive i can guess ur name in game kappa

                        so much ignorance, stupidity, and cancer coming from you. Are you batrider in real life?

                        Cheaters are the scum of any game, so yeah, please dont you dare compare yourself to rage quitters. Its an insult for them.
                        the fact that you still think I'm a cheater is pretty amusing. Don't stop though, keep amusing me.

                        Everyone has to deal with drunk partners, dumb players and angry trolls. Most the people deal with it because thats the way the game is.

                        Yeah, the MM system is flawed, but good players deal with it, unlike what you think, there's very few scum players like you who try their best to trick the system. (Mostly thanks to the punishment)
                        see? this is where your logic fails yet again. You state these 2 things like they are meant to be in this game and it's perfectly normal fine and dandy to encounter them every match. what kind of game is enjoyable with these people? your 2k games may be fun as hell with throws left and right lol. Like I said in my op, only the higher ranked people are affected by dodgers or want to dodge bad players - which doesn't really apply to 2k scum like you who WHITE KNIGHT still.

                        No its not the same, you dont dodge looking for balance, you dodge looking for easy matches and running away from the difficult ones....If you saw that feeder in the enemy team again, I'm 100% you wouldnt dodge him.
                        I dodge looking for balance in the fact that I have an incompetent like yourself on my team, and the other team is all competent. That is the basic idea of balance. Evenly skilled players that are ready to play and not drunk as shit. Again, if it's too hard for you to understand, I can retype everything and explain it again.

                        This post is just about you blatantly begging for the system to change so that you can cheat without being punished for it. And saying "The way we should see dodging" Is not gonna make people suddenly realize that your cheating should be allowed at the cost of their time and more realistic ranks.
                        I'm not begging for the system to change. The op clearly states that I wanted feedback on my thoughts surrounding the system. It looks like they "didn't teach you to read in primary school" haha. More realistic ranks? I win 4 games in a row with BALANCED, yes, BALANCED teammates and enemy opponents. No feeders, no drunk idiots, no throwers. Everyone waits for pauses and plays well etc.. yada yada. Then I get matched with idiot teammates for the next 4 games. Ok, fine. But the 4th game's thrower (new scenario) comes into my 5th game. I just lost 100 mmr, do you think I want to deal with this guy again?

                        Again, not telling me your mmr and dotabuff even though you want to base your opinions on how well you know the game; when in reality you not only know nothing about the game, but know very little about how social relationships work. shame shame.
                        Last edited by Duquesne; 04-08-2015, 06:52 PM.
                        Originally posted by Kryil-
                        Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Duquesne View Post
                          shit im so stupid sorry derp.
                          Lol, yeah you are X) my ingame name is stated in my profile since 2 years ago. Thanks for proving it was indeed too difficult for you.

                          the fact that you still think I'm a cheater is pretty amusing.
                          Yeah you are, and not because I think it but because Valve(The game developer who uh...makes the rules) does. Dodging is not allowed and is even punished, its not part of the game hence you are cheating. Simple

                          I dodge looking for balance in the fact that I have an incompetent like yourself on my team, and the other team is all competent. That is the basic idea of balance
                          Dumb player in my team = Not balanced I DODGE
                          Dumb player in the enemy team = Totally Balanced!!! I stay!

                          only the higher ranked people are affected by dodgers or want to dodge bad players
                          ""High ranks are plagued with players that need to be dodged (Noobs, cheaters, losers), and the best players are all dodgers!!!""" Sounds legit.....(SARCASM! SARCASM!)

                          I win 4 games in a row with BALANCED, yes, BALANCED teammates and enemy opponents.
                          Following your concept of balance, it means that in order to win 4 meager games in a row, you had to dodge games where you would have lost, and you stayed in games where there was feeders in the other game. Totally proud of yourself uh?

                          No feeders, no drunk idiots, no throwers.
                          But remember! Its totally balanced if they are in the enemy team *wink wink*....Oh and even tho I already mentioned it, let me close with your smartest argument yet:

                          Dumb player in my team = Not balanced I DODGE
                          Dumb player in the enemy team = Totally Balanced!!! I stay!

                          If you want easy games and you dont want to deal with the dodging punishment there's always bots mate.
                          Last edited by Shmendrich; 04-08-2015, 07:51 PM.
                          Make a NON automated report system.
                          I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                          Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                          The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Duquesne View Post
                            Put yourself in my shoes for scenario 1 and think it over. Would you take the guaranteed -25?
                            What, you think you are the only one in the history of dota that had to deal with someone who was almost 100% guaranteed a troll?
                            Spoiler: 

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Following your concept of balance, it means that in order to win 4 meager games in a row, you had to dodge games where you would have lost, and you stayed in games where there was feeders in the other game. Totally proud of yourself uh?
                              Can't find your name on your profile. Sorry for my lack of competence and I will stop dodging for you, sir valve.

                              Anyways, you mistake me on the quoted post. I have only dodged 2 games in the past year. Both of which were today after the loss streak. So no, those 4 games were 100% my wins. I'll respond to your garbage post later, gonna call it a day for troll slaying.

                              Also, you still refuse to link dotabuff and reveal your mmr.
                              Last edited by Duquesne; 04-08-2015, 11:24 PM.
                              Originally posted by Kryil-
                              Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

                              Comment

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