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Solutions to the Hidden Pool Crisis

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  • Solutions to the Hidden Pool Crisis

    Hi guys, I'd just like to ask if anyone here knows of any practical solutions to getting rid of hidden pool, and if possible, can provide some more information.

    Part 1: Observations

    I noticed a few weeks ago (2-3) that the quality of my matches at 5k+ MMR started to deteriorate significantly, showcasing uncooperative teammates from load screen to finish.

    Examples:
    - one or two people are constantly afk jungling on my team and getting picked off while the other team has 2 roaming supports
    - the highest mmr player on my team (6k+) plays like he is low or mid 4k by buying bad items, not joining any fights, abnormally low hero/tower dmg, etc.
    - other team instalocks broken heroes, mine randoms theirs or picks bad heroes consistently (at high level games, people are fully aware of which heroes are game-winning and game-losing so attributing this to ignorance is faulty logic)
    - people on my team are arguing after a few deaths or furiously typing in all chat

    So despite the fact that I am actually improving on certain heroes, my MMR has taken a huge nosedive. I've also started using reports way more frequently in the past 2 weeks than I have ever used them since ranked came out, with a successful report rate of approximately 50%, so I am at this point 90% sure there is some kind of hidden algorithm involved in this matchmaking process putting all (or most) of the cancerous/toxic players out of the 9 on my team.

    I've verified this by playing on a smurf recently and I've noticed matchmaking works fine on a non-hidden pool account - my team seems to be, on average, as skilled as the enemy team (and shows the same level of cooperation); obviously, you will still get roughly 1 out of 6 games that are cancerous but it happens to everyone. Hidden pool just increases the frequency of these cancerous games and now it's quite miserable/unbearable to play on my main account. I have met plenty of 5k and 6k players in unranked so my unranked MMR should roughly correspond to my main account's MMR.

    Since valve has continuously tried to discourage smurfing (gotten rid of bp boosters, removed the ability to add friends without purchasing a steam gift/receiving a steam gift), I would like to ask if anyone here on dev dota 2 has any other suggestions.

    Part 2: Miscellaneous Information

    My understanding of hidden pool is that it's based on teammate evaluations at the end of a match, where you are rated 1-5 stars. This is, however, too vague of a description.

    - Are these star ratings averaged out over time? Let's say I get rated 1 star, then 5, and finally 3. Does that mean I get into the "3 star pool?"

    - How would these star ratings be used to match people up? Let's say I have 1.3 stars average, over 10 teammate evaluations; do I get exclusively 1-2 star teammates? Or does matchmaking try to find 1-2 star teammates, and if there aren't enough queuing at any given time, it moves on and tries to find 3 star teammates? I have noticed a few games where my team played quite well and people were willing to support/help out other lanes, but the ratio is quite low compared to what a player in "normal" standing might expect.

    (Keep in mind this is in addition to the restraints imposed by MMR balance on both teams.)

    - Do reports factor into this algorithm as well?

    - Last but most importantly: Why are valve developers silent on this issue? Making the parameters transparent (or coming out and saying "no, there isn't a hidden pool, you're just delusional about your skill level") would be a great way to inform players about their poor standing so they can 1) provide feedback on how well the system works, similar to the overwatch bans implemented in CS:GO 2) work their way into good/normal standing without second guessing every action they take.
    Last edited by Serenade; 04-23-2015, 02:04 AM.

  • #2
    What the fuck are you talking about?
    Do you also believe in Lizardmen takeing over the world?

    Comment


    • #3
      Try stopping your search after it takes too long. The problem that if there isn't enough people of your MMR, the game will try to search further, thus making for a more unbalanced matches. If you restart your search after a few mins have passed, it should search for equal players again.
      Possible solution to foreigners issue
      In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

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      • #4
        Actually, no one here knows how the system works in its entirety but based on past screw-ups (like the zeus ult charade), I won't be surprised if there are hidden pools.
        https://soundcloud.com/blinkingriki182

        Comment


        • #5
          I always click Cancel on the post-match window.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            So many people have been trolled with this, it's not even funny anymore.

            Comment


            • #7
              As long as oblivious fanboys defend them , Valve will stay silent and try to dismiss the suggestions as crazy talk. They know we can't prove it exist for sure.

              Comment


              • #8
                What the fuck are you talking about?
                Do you also believe in Lizardmen takeing over the world?
                he actually asks valid questions here. Everyone knows matchmaking isn't what it seems.

                Try stopping your search after it takes too long. The problem that if there isn't enough people of your MMR, the game will try to search further, thus making for a more unbalanced matches. If you restart your search after a few mins have passed, it should search for equal players again.
                This isn't an mmr issue. He said he got matched with someone that has 6k mmr (system working as intended) but the 6k player was bad.
                Originally posted by Kryil-
                Shut up Shmendrich. Seriously...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Duquesne View Post
                  he actually asks valid questions here. Everyone knows matchmaking isn't what it seems.
                  Make a NON automated report system.
                  I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                  Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                  The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

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                  • #10
                    He is actually right. I am playing on 4k and most of the time i playing with players who barely know anything about their heroe. For example they dont know that troll can change attack type etc. And despite the fact i reporting force feeders i keep getting with them in the same team every time. There was a guy i played with him 3 times, he force feeded bought divine to gave the enemy, and i keep getting this guy in my team. So i know 4k is far from any profession level, but the players i get in my team shouldnt even get 1k mmr because they dont even know the very basics of the game or the heroes. The MM system is broken, i don't ask for better mmr i just want the same skilled players like i am. btw sometimes i even met with farm more skilled players on 4k who suppose to be on 5k or more, but it seems they cant go up on the ladder as well. After thinking a lot i think mmr system is not for measuring the skills of the players i am sure.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Markman View Post
                      He is actually right. I am playing on 4k and most of the time i playing with players who barely know anything about their heroe.
                      That happens not because valve has a personal vendetta against you, it just happens because the current matching system and ranks are a joke for a lot of reasons.
                      • Smurfs
                      • Account sellers
                      • Dodgers and boosters
                      • Dumb balancing methods (highest hero damage Woah! lets all use zeus to calibrate ourselves!(I know zeus specifically is fixed, but that doesnt means they fixed the way this is calculated))
                      • Cheaters (actual use of illegal programs or advantages)

                      And EVEN if rank was right. We dont have brackets!...You sometimes see games with up to 2-3k discrepancies in between players.
                      Make a NON automated report system.
                      I would rather wait 10 minutes for a balanced, fun and exciting match that will last 1+ hours. Than wait 10 seconds for a poorly balanced crapmatch that will end in 30- minutes
                      Valve, How I'm I supposed to respect certain boundaries to prevent a mute if I dont know them because they are different for each and every person on each and every game I play?
                      The only type of player that dislikes having his stats public are the players that suck and cheaters

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OP, I've been noticing the same in my matches. The quality of my team seems to go up and down, changing drastically.
                        • You can get comletly silents and passive players, who kind-of "afk" in the jungle until minute 15,
                        • Make bad game-losing picks (example: Phoenix vs Meepo)
                        • Flame furiously after first death, or get extremly toxic and act all like "FU TARD".
                        • Make generally bad decisions, don't know what to pick (wait for the horn before randoming), make wrong items, etc.


                        Then suddenly after 3-4 trash games, you get a player, who instantly insta-locks a mid hero and reks 20-1, while some guy on your team feeds and takes it hard from behind.
                        Then when the loser gets carried and make it into the late, he writes EZ in the chat

                        After that, suddenly your games are fine again. Until you win 3-4 times in a row, then you get matched with trash again for a few games, then the story repeats.




                        Anyway, devs don't care, nor will ever put a word about this.

                        While having a big playerbase, 99% of these 10.000.000 players don't complain. They are just vegetables. For them, Dota is free and you can write EZ at the end of the game, that's all they need besides being carried from time to time.

                        Why talk to the minority, when the majority doesn't even know who Valve or IceFrog is?

                        Valve is the new EA.




                        OP, I have a link about hidden pools in my signature, you might like it.
                        Threads I think are useful to read:



                        Just another day on EU servers.

                        ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE BETTER PUNISHMENT SYSTEM ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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                        • #13
                          Hidden pools were coded by illuminati(tm).
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Who cares if they are slowly cyanizing hardcore DotA fans to appeal to the "window shoppers". Everything is backed up by stats: hardcore fans tend to reject cosmetics - specially poorly designed ones since the QA/QC went down in the workshop - or other distractions like pets, in-game ads in the form of the victory shout-out/buy charms/pa arcana. It's all a well greased machine - pro players, casters, organizations all follow both unwritten and legal-binding suggestions to push hats. And stacks - "the way it's meant to be played" (not many realize how much more value has the data gathered about more people interacting with each other over the data gathered about a single person - and Valve sure records everything).

                            Sure you can ignore hats. But you can't ignore matchmaking - built from the ground up to mix casuals with hardcore players, with the invisible hand making sure casuals will get to win, too, even if they don't deserve. And there is nothing more frustrating in this game for a hardcore player, than to play with a casual.

                            And now it has started bleeding into the PRO world, too. Dumbing down the whole game with come back mechanics. Buffing "noob" heroes and leaving the META unbalanced for months.

                            Hardcore players are either playing less or escape to IHL's.
                            People dismissing Valve's invisible hand tend to be "stupid people" IRL, too. And that's the majority, whether is the reddit mob, or useful idiots once every 4 years when the politicians need them (to vote or not to vote because "not interested - I'm not affected").
                            You're either good or you suffer from dunning kruger, talking about the shady pools is like calling crisis for what it is - blatant theft from known perpetrators not a voided of meaning, impersonal scapegoat.
                            Troubleshooting crashes
                            Dota 2 Resources: autoexec.cfg reference / benchmark.cfg / Tweak it yourself (launch options, cvars) / useful batch files
                            No-Bling GlanceValue & FPS ++ NEW! Panorama hotkeys NEW! dota_primary_mm_language_override NEW TOGGLE_QUICKCAST_TP.bat NEW FIX LEGACY KEYS YOURSELF! NEW Toggle UI Animations OFF

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why mmr is broken?, is that way on purpose, it happens like with diamonds, there are PLENTY of diamonds BUT they make them scarse so they can up THEIR VALUE, why its the same?, because you people are not stupid, there is a lot of people out there that have amazing gamming capabilities, people that have the ability to master Dota 2 no problems the only thing that is blocking these people and YOU to get better is this MMR that is here on purpose, this is the only way they can make money of this game, they select a few "PRO" players and make money out of them, something that would not be possible if a lot of people could become PRO, so every time you get these idiots no matter on what skill bracket you are ITS ON PURPOSE, why most of the players have 50% +/- win rate?, its because the system always does that so you DONT WIN TOO MUCH, so you get all this mental invalids or peruvians in your matches that CLEARLY ARE TRASH but they are on your skill bracket (whatever is it) somehow, the system tries to hide this fact but it dosent do a good job doing it because a lot of people are now aware of this BS.

                              Call this a conspiracy theory or mock about this facts the way you want i could not careless about what a fanboy thinks, evil exists, and people seems to forget this fact, people became sheeps, people accept everything without asking questions, people just become mental invalids that trust everything and love to be lied.
                              Last edited by Zherot; 04-26-2015, 11:27 AM.

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