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Huge drop in game quality since latest change of mute system

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  • Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    First of all, there is no I in team, you got 4 other people to blame when things go wrong. The essense of teamplay is the ability to blame others when things go wrong and it's how teamplay really works(really!)
    That's incorrect. The teeam consists out of people doing volunteer work. If someone feels pissed off, you lost him. Blaming someone in such an unstable team is the dumbest thing possible if your goal is to win the game. You are not someone's boss. You are not someone who is credible of saying "you are wrong", not more than everyone else in your team. So, if you criticize your team, you must be aware that what you say or think is nothing more than your personal perception of what's going on. You have NO RIGHT to tell other people in your team that they are wrong. The only thing that you are allowed to do is giving feedback. And if you're too dumb to be able to give feedback that increases your winning chances, i.e. give feedback that is actually destructive to your team, that's not going to end pretty.
    In other words, when you tell someone "omg phase boots on crystal maiden srsly", then it's you doing the mistake instead of the guy you are blaming. Because you believe you are better than him. At this level, any kind of team play is unimaginable. Player A thinks he is better than Player B. Player B thinks he is better than Player A. Teamwork is impossible to happen in such a situation.
    In other words, anything implying that you know better is detrimental to your game. Yes, even if the other guy wants to get help from you and you are "helping" him, it doesn't mean that the result is an improvement. If you're overwriting right stuff with wrong stuff, you are causing more harm than good.
    The only thing that you are allowed to do is give feedback/criticism. You are not allowed to even expect that the other guy accepts it, because that turns the basic idea of communication as a two-way road ad-absurdum.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    Secondly, don't get the people here wrong, nobody is against a system that reduces the amount of toxic behavior.
    This is incorrect. There are a lot of people here saying "grow a thick skin". This means they actively support a toxic atmosphere. The only reason why we even have a discussion in this thread is because people DISAGREE with the suggestion in the OP: That flamers and non-flamers should not play together.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    But fighting the toxic behavior itself is NOT the solution.
    That's what I said.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    The behavior is as you know it triggered by situations and attitudes of other players. Players usually don't just explode all over people, they have a reason to do it and when that reason is taken away, they will automatically stop.
    This is just bullshit. The behaviour of a rager is not triggered by the game, it's triggered by the rager for reasons that his players are simply unable to understand. I call mid, someone rages at me. I don't call mid, someone rages at me. What did I do wrong?
    The answer is simple: A rager, or flamer lacks the self control necessary to react differently in different situations. You don't have to do anything wrong at all. The simply "bad mood" or selfish attitude of a person can cause him to rage at you.
    Everyone does a lot of mistakes in his gameplay every game. Some people (like me) look at their own mistakes and try to improve. Some people look at other peoples mistakes and try to improve other people - failing miserably in the end, because you can not change other people.
    Flaming will never "automatically stop". The more frustrated a player becomes, the more he will flame. Frustration comes from a lot of different things, like looking at your team members ruining your game. But frustration also VERY oftenly comes from making mistakes yourself.
    So, in the end, to make flame stop automatically, it requires everyone (including the flamer) to be perfect and it requires that a Dota game can not be lost. Which is a state that will never become real.
    The only way to stop aggression is to make players behave more mature and make them aware of the situation in which they are and that their rage increases their own rage. If people could control their emotions, there would be no flame.
    But unfortunately, dota is not only played by people who are mature enough to control and reflect themselves, so the only permanent solution that comes to my mind is to protect the mature players from the influence of the immature players.
    That's what my suggestion was and still is: To seperate these kinds of players from another.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    His point is that you should be able to have greater influence in the outcome of a match with your OD. Your less than 3 kda is essentially saying you do fuck all, despite being a carry.
    Only someone who never ever watched me play could say something like this. It's just insulting.
    Furthermore, it's a completely baseless theory of you that this statistic is insufficient for someone playing OD often. You are just assuming that someone playing OD that often should have a higher score. If your theory was however true, it would radically change the way dota was being played on a competetive level, since it would basically mean that your winrate increases when you practice a hero more often.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    Random players don't know what every hero does, they have good general skill, but they cannot take a hero beyond midlevel. It's generalisation vs specialisation. If the specialist fits the team, the team will be better off with him, otherwise the guy with more general knowledge will be more beneficial.
    Specialization doesn't mean "the ofter you play this hero, the better you become with him". It just means that you pick the hero more often than an average player would do. In Dota, a specialist is a player who played a hero around 20 times within the last couple of months. Everything above it has no influence on the special skill of the player.
    I myself are developing further every game that I'm playing with OD. I'm constantly changing my style of play to try out new things. Your K/D/A statistics punishes me for any kind of specialization, because it requires me to never change the way I play. If you want to have good stats or a high winrate or even a high skill, you want to do the same stuff just over and over and over. If you were just exploring the hero, you would just try out the hero, maybe you may find a better skill build, or a better item build for him? Or maybe you end up with better solutions for difficult situations? You can not find this out by simply theorycrafting, and this has been proven already even in the case of OD.
    I was one of the first people playing OD with Blink Dagger, or Tranquil Boots. I lost most of my games not because of those items were too bad, but simply because my allies refused to accept that there are other ways to build and play OD than what they had in their closed minds.

    Also, your last sentence just contradicted what you ever said about me. You are just saying that although I'm a "specialist", I shouldn't perform better than an average player, since I don't "fit the team". This obviously needs some clarification coming from you.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    The problem that has been reiterated time and time and time and time again is that you refuse to tell your teammates that you need help.
    I never tell my teammates that I need help? That's just so wrong, again I feel insulted, and perhaps most of my allies saying "stop crying" after I told a 5th time that I won't be able to farm on this lane are just laughing their asses off at this moment.
    I don't know what should I say.
    It's just completely wrong. I always call for help, and I always try to inform my team of something not going well. My team simply doesn't feel like helping me.
    And yes, I wished my allies would call for help more often, because most of the time, they just insult me after they got killed. I could have just TP'ed in and saved them. But of course I'm supposed to watch the entire map all the time while I'm taking last hits.
    Well, maybe I am indeed supposed to watch the entire map all the time for team mates requiring help?
    My skill goes only so far, and here it ends. For the same reason I don't play micro intensive characters like Chen or Meepo, I'm not able to have this kind of perfect map awareness.
    And I'm 100% sure, most people in my games are not much different from this.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    Only after the damage has been done and the opposing midhero is completely out of control will they find out that you failed. That is why people get pissed off and start yelling at you.
    Only because people are too ignorant to interpret my help calls accordingly. There is not much I could do against it. At some point, I just decide to join my allies on whatever they are just doing and let the Lone Druid destroy our Rax. Because, you know, if I go back to defend it, I die and my team hates me. If I don't go back, we lose the game and everyone hates himself (or blames whoever to not TP'ing back). Either way I lose.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    The basic assumption in any game is that the people entering know how to play. This is why I state time and time again that if you are new you HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE YOU ARE NEW.
    This is not related to this discussion. There is no "I'm 45.78% skilled" value in Dota. I'm not new. I'm still asking for help if I have problems. Standard answer: "just uninstall fucking noob". If I ask for what I could have done against the Nyx, I'm getting told "dont die", so how can i prevent dying? "just dont die dumbshit".
    From some experience in League of Legends (and also from when I started playing DotA 1 on Garena), I know saying that you're new means 100% loss of the game, most likely not even start of the game, because some of your allies are just dodging the game. In this community, telling someone that you are not the highest skilled player in the world automatically means you're getting flamed and you're getting treated very poorly.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    And I've been telling this to people on IRC as well and what they tell me is "Meh, I don't give enough of a shit to tell them, I just want to play" and at the same time, they do not want to get flamed for fucking their team over. I cannot stress enough how important it is for newer players to tell people they are new. It boosts the patience level of players, even extremely toxic ones such as myself, to incredible heights. You can come in with Dazzle and go 0 - 13 and be fine, while I'm spending my time flaming the QoP who's not doing his job.
    Maybe it works for some people. It certainly worsens the situation of a new player in a lot of cases. But it's not related to the topic. I'm certainly not a new player when I'm able to somehow outcarry a YYF, or otherwise win games in the Very High skillbracket in front of 500+ spectators.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    While not knowing how well you're going to do, you do know if you're going to need instructions or not. When you fail your lane it's not the main issue, when not calling for help or telling your teammates to go fuck themselves is where issues start. If you DID call for help and they didn't help you, then it is THEIR fault, not yours. On that we agree.
    Ah, we agree on that one? For me it looks like you are very negatively biased towards me accusating me of being a dick who doesn't care about his allies. I DID call for help and they DIDN'T help me, but instead they are flaming me.

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    If the opposing team is flaming you, it's an excellent moment to troll the shit out of them, either by words or ingame actions. Just keep pushing them buttons till they snap and lose.
    Maybe if you're winning, but a team is more likely to flame another team when they are winning rather than when they're losing. There is barely any flame from the losing team at all (except the standard "tryhard", "op", "drow picker" arguments that hardly even cross the border to be considered flame), usually the flame always comes from the winners feeling the need to show themselves off. For me it just shows the terrifying attitude of most dota players: "As long as I'm not the target, everything is alright".

    Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
    Your skill with OD and your general apparent mindset has everything to do with this thread. From what we see, you're not doing all that great and while that is fine, you at the same time insinuate your teammates are just a bunch of dumbasses and you shouldn't be talking to them. That is where the problem is, the deadly double combination of failure and disrespect.
    There is nothing in common with what you think of how I am in the game, and how I'm actually in the game. You're just miles away from reality.
    I'm pretty sure that I'm very close to the upper limit of respect towards my allies that is possible. I've gone so far, that I'm even playing OD as a lane support when my team wants it, swap my favourite hero with an ally just because he's interested in playing OD that game, I'm apologizing for mistakes that aren't even my mistakes, I'm buying items for my team (that they want me to get) even though I know that they are bad items on my hero, I'm ganking with a mid OD even though pro's and Playdota-Pro's alike tell me that OD should farm instead of gank - just to please my team. I defend people who are getting flamed by other people.
    If I had a player being that tolerant and communicative as me in my team, I'd instantly add him as friend and play games with him - regardless of whether he's a good player or "just bad".
    Last edited by Typhox; 07-07-2013, 03:19 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Typhox View Post
      That's incorrect. The teeam consists out of people doing volunteer work. If someone feels pissed off, you lost him. Blaming someone in such an unstable team is the dumbest thing possible if your goal is to win the game. You are not someone's boss. You are not someone who is credible of saying "you are wrong", not more than everyone else in your team. So, if you criticize your team, you must be aware that what you say or think is nothing more than your personal perception of what's going on. You have NO RIGHT to tell other people in your team that they are wrong. The only thing that you are allowed to do is giving feedback. And if you're too dumb to be able to give feedback that increases your winning chances, i.e. give feedback that is actually destructive to your team, that's not going to end pretty.
      In other words, when you tell someone "omg phase boots on crystal maiden srsly", then it's you doing the mistake instead of the guy you are blaming. Because you believe you are better than him. At this level, any kind of team play is unimaginable. Player A thinks he is better than Player B. Player B thinks he is better than Player A. Teamwork is impossible to happen in such a situation.
      In other words, anything implying that you know better is detrimental to your game. Yes, even if the other guy wants to get help from you and you are "helping" him, it doesn't mean that the result is an improvement. If you're overwriting right stuff with wrong stuff, you are causing more harm than good.
      The only thing that you are allowed to do is give feedback/criticism. You are not allowed to even expect that the other guy accepts it, because that turns the basic idea of communication as a two-way road ad-absurdum.
      A team is a group of several individuals trying to work together. I've played with people that get pissed off and still end up doing fine. And while a team where there are no leaders can work, it usually doesn't. So yeah, if you want to win, you will have to accept taking orders from one or two people. In CoD4 for example, our clanwar team was effectively playing two leaders and depending on who would die first, one of them will be informing the team on what to do and the other is focussing on shooting people. It's a system that can be annoying to some, but people that accept it love you for it; it's that simple. And while a leader isn't appointed by the game itself, you will notice in some games that a person will try to take charge.

      Also, what happened to your RIGHT to free speech? I DO have the right to tell people they are doing it wrong, it's my opinion and I can voice it. I'm even abiding by politeness rules in most cases and don't user racist slurs when I do decide to cross the line and start hurling insults. And yes, "omg phase boots on crystal maiden srsly", does not sound too friendly, but the CM can defuse the situations with simply stating why he/she got that item or asking what he/she should've gotten instead. If this person is so clueless however, it would've been nice telling the team in advance. This isn't about being better or being worse, this is about carrying your weight as part of the team. The team must be able to rely on you and if you make mistakes without telling them, they will be pissed off. It isn't even a personal thing, if I saw Dendi get treads on a hero with 275 base movement speed I would still be inclined to ask him wtf he's on.
      This is incorrect. There are a lot of people here saying "grow a thick skin". This means they actively support a toxic atmosphere. The only reason why we even have a discussion in this thread is because people DISAGREE with the suggestion in the OP: That flamers and non-flamers should not play together.
      They are saying that because currently the opening statement saying something amongst the lines of "you are wrong" is met with a report for abuse behavior. You don't need to call people names, you don't even need to have a bad tone of writing, if you tell a person that what he's doing is wrong and if you have the audacity to explain him why, you are being reported. This is where people tell you to swallow some pride, grow some skin and take some advice, even when badly formulated. I don't think anyone in this forum or game is saying that you should allow being someone's bitch and taking abuse from him the entire game. If people were abuse reported for that; and their misbehavior is indeed proven, then in my opinion, they shouldn't just be muted, they should be banned from the game for a certain amount of time. This group of people, surely exists, but is really small and is much more easily ignored. The most abusive thing however, is your teammate calling you an idiot and being right, by proof and reasoning, to do so. People just cannot stand that, as their pride is being hammered into the ground and their mistake is on display for 3 other people as well.
      This is just bullshit. The behaviour of a rager is not triggered by the game, it's triggered by the rager for reasons that his players are simply unable to understand. I call mid, someone rages at me. I don't call mid, someone rages at me. What did I do wrong?
      The answer is simple: A rager, or flamer lacks the self control necessary to react differently in different situations. You don't have to do anything wrong at all. The simply "bad mood" or selfish attitude of a person can cause him to rage at you.
      Everyone does a lot of mistakes in his gameplay every game. Some people (like me) look at their own mistakes and try to improve. Some people look at other peoples mistakes and try to improve other people - failing miserably in the end, because you can not change other people.
      Flaming will never "automatically stop". The more frustrated a player becomes, the more he will flame. Frustration comes from a lot of different things, like looking at your team members ruining your game. But frustration also VERY oftenly comes from making mistakes yourself.
      So, in the end, to make flame stop automatically, it requires everyone (including the flamer) to be perfect and it requires that a Dota game can not be lost. Which is a state that will never become real.
      The only way to stop aggression is to make players behave more mature and make them aware of the situation in which they are and that their rage increases their own rage. If people could control their emotions, there would be no flame.
      But unfortunately, dota is not only played by people who are mature enough to control and reflect themselves, so the only permanent solution that comes to my mind is to protect the mature players from the influence of the immature players.
      That's what my suggestion was and still is: To seperate these kinds of players from another.
      Don't ask me what you're doing wrong, ask the people that are flaming you! That has been my point, they flame you for a reason which they believe is correct. Attitude and mood can speed up the process where a player crosses the line, but it's not the trigger. The trigger is something that happens in game by either his own doing or his teammates doing. You triggered it by calling a lane, while this kind of flame is hard to justify, there is always a reason. Yes, everyone makes mistakes, you, me, Dendi, everyone. And yes, most people sincere about winning will look at their own mistakes and try to improve. However, it's easier to find other people's mistakes than your own, because in your game you can see what is hampering your ability and what isn't. You know a teammate made a mistake when he didn't follow up on an opening you provided; and if you don't tell him, he won't ever know. And if he responds with anything among the lines of "go fuck yourself", it's him being an ass, not you. And yes, making mistakes yourself can be very frustrating; I'm a Guilty Gear player so I know But that frustration and the cause of frustration can be overcome by the player and it doesn't result in the player flaming his team for it.
      Only someone who never ever watched me play could say something like this. It's just insulting.
      Furthermore, it's a completely baseless theory of you that this statistic is insufficient for someone playing OD often. You are just assuming that someone playing OD that often should have a higher score. If your theory was however true, it would radically change the way dota was being played on a competetive level, since it would basically mean that your winrate increases when you practice a hero more often.
      Look, here's where people will tell you to grow some skin, if you're insulted by someone else being wrong, there isn't a whole lot of places where this can go now is there? I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm not calling you an asshole. I have been saying that considering those stats and what you're saying in this thread, you might want to check your own behavior in the game, because we feel there's a problem there. If you want, we can play together, I live in the country west of yours While I might not be the most skilled teammember as I am right now, I will at least be able to vouch that the examples you're putting up in the forum are genuine.
      Specialization doesn't mean "the ofter you play this hero, the better you become with him". It just means that you pick the hero more often than an average player would do. In Dota, a specialist is a player who played a hero around 20 times within the last couple of months. Everything above it has no influence on the special skill of the player.
      Specialization means you learn more on a specific subject(hero) than other people would normally do and often it means you sacrifice your learning time doing this. This means you know more about the hero, but less about the other heroes. Playing a hero many times helps with the learning process and having 2000 games with OD should put you a lot further down the learning curve than other people.
      I myself are developing further every game that I'm playing with OD. I'm constantly changing my style of play to try out new things. Your K/D/A statistics punishes me for any kind of specialization, because it requires me to never change the way I play. If you want to have good stats or a high winrate or even a high skill, you want to do the same stuff just over and over and over. If you were just exploring the hero, you would just try out the hero, maybe you may find a better skill build, or a better item build for him? Or maybe you end up with better solutions for difficult situations? You can not find this out by simply theorycrafting, and this has been proven already even in the case of OD.
      I was one of the first people playing OD with Blink Dagger, or Tranquil Boots. I lost most of my games not because of those items were too bad, but simply because my allies refused to accept that there are other ways to build and play OD than what they had in their closed minds.
      Well there you go, you try things with him, you sacrifice time that could be spend in other areas of the game learning the intricates of your hero. This is not something we argue about, but if you are that specialized, getting a mek before a forcestaff should not be costing you the game. And again, people will go after you if they smell bullshit, so if you tell them "I'm trying something new" they at least know you're doing these kind of things. However, when I switch itembuilds or do something weird with a hero(like jungling with spectre) I usually do this in a bot game, not a normal game.
      Also, your last sentence just contradicted what you ever said about me. You are just saying that although I'm a "specialist", I shouldn't perform better than an average player, since I don't "fit the team". This obviously needs some clarification coming from you.
      What I'm saying is that there's 4 other teammembers picking different heroes, getting OD while, for example, Slark is on your team or a magic immune hero is on the opposing team is a bad idea, as you will be providing your opponents with means to evade a disable lock.
      I never tell my teammates that I need help? That's just so wrong, again I feel insulted, and perhaps most of my allies saying "stop crying" after I told a 5th time that I won't be able to farm on this lane are just laughing their asses off at this moment.
      I don't know what should I say.
      Well, stop saying you are insulted, grow a skin on that. Furthermore, we cannot confirm that you are not making this up. Your situation as it is is sounding unrealistic to say the least, especially if you have this happen often to you. I'm usually the guy flaming people and it has been for the afore mentioned reasons of them not communicating properly followed by the general consensus that they don't give a fuck.
      Only because people are too ignorant to interpret my help calls accordingly. There is not much I could do against it. At some point, I just decide to join my allies on whatever they are just doing and let the Lone Druid destroy our Rax. Because, you know, if I go back to defend it, I die and my team hates me. If I don't go back, we lose the game and everyone hates himself (or blames whoever to not TP'ing back). Either way I lose.
      You can also inform your team that the lone druid is attacking the rax. If they are sincere about winning, they will be much more inclined to port back.
      This is not related to this discussion. There is no "I'm 45.78% skilled" value in Dota. I'm not new. I'm still asking for help if I have problems. Standard answer: "just uninstall fucking noob". If I ask for what I could have done against the Nyx, I'm getting told "dont die", so how can i prevent dying? "just dont die dumbshit".
      From some experience in League of Legends (and also from when I started playing DotA 1 on Garena), I know saying that you're new means 100% loss of the game, most likely not even start of the game, because some of your allies are just dodging the game. In this community, telling someone that you are not the highest skilled player in the world automatically means you're getting flamed and you're getting treated very poorly.
      Like I mentioned before, when I came into HoN and told people I am new and needed(demanded) help, people were telling me stuff I needed to know and they didn't flame me. That was before the huge influx of assholes joining that game's beta however. If you are as humble as you say you are and your opponents are indeed being assholes like that, then there isn't much I can say either. It's unlikely however that the mute system stops these kind of players.
      Maybe it works for some people. It certainly worsens the situation of a new player in a lot of cases. But it's not related to the topic. I'm certainly not a new player when I'm able to somehow outcarry a YYF, or otherwise win games in the Very High skillbracket in front of 500+ spectators.
      In general it works, if you're meeting people that are just assholes, meh; nothing can be done about that. But again, assholes are less likely to be affected by the mute system. Most people that are being sniped off by this system are people that would instruct newer players and have a shitload of patience for them. For me, this IS the main topic, I want people to understand that I believe the majority of toxic players aren't just assholes trying to ruin your day.
      Ah, we agree on that one? For me it looks like you are very negatively biased towards me accusating me of being a dick who doesn't care about his allies. I DID call for help and they DIDN'T help me, but instead they are flaming me.
      Though again, we have no proof thanks to team communication being filtered out of replays. We cannot confirm you being justified. And what you were saying earlier gave us the notion that you were not.
      Maybe if you're winning, but a team is more likely to flame another team when they are winning rather than when they're losing. There is barely any flame from the losing team at all (except the standard "tryhard", "op", "drow picker" arguments that hardly even cross the border to be considered flame), usually the flame always comes from the winners feeling the need to show themselves off. For me it just shows the terrifying attitude of most dota players: "As long as I'm not the target, everything is alright".
      It doesn't happen too often, but if that happens, it's just one more reason to take the game from them. Unless your teammates are stupid enough to respond that is... You can of course also be a nice person and apologize for your poor performance.
      There is nothing in common with what you think of how I am in the game, and how I'm actually in the game. You're just miles away from reality.
      I'm pretty sure that I'm very close to the upper limit of respect towards my allies that is possible. I've gone so far, that I'm even playing OD as a lane support when my team wants it, swap my favourite hero with an ally just because he's interested in playing OD that game, I'm apologizing for mistakes that aren't even my mistakes, I'm buying items for my team (that they want me to get) even though I know that they are bad items on my hero, I'm ganking with a mid OD even though pro's and Playdota-Pro's alike tell me that OD should farm instead of gank - just to please my team. I defend people who are getting flamed by other people.
      If I had a player being that tolerant and communicative as me in my team, I'd instantly add him as friend and play games with him - regardless of whether he's a good player or "just bad".
      Well fine, if you're interested in playing with me, just pm me and we will play. I'm a honest man and if you are indeed playing as you say you are, then I will vouch for that on this forum.
      JUST QUIT PLAYING ALREADY

      VALVE DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT, NEITHER SHOULD YOU

      SPEND YOUR TIME ON A DEVELOPMENT TEAM THAT ISN'T AFRAID TO POST ON THEIR OWN DEVELOPER FORUMS

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Noo View Post
        My games are the exact opposite of yours. And how is this a gameplay bug?
        Because you're the A-hole. Thats why.

        Comment


        • "you can not lose mid with OD"
          Stopped reading right there because you actually used that fact in a sarcastic manner. You deserved the flame. (twice)

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          • Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            A team is a group of several individuals trying to work together. I've played with people that get pissed off and still end up doing fine. And while a team where there are no leaders can work, it usually doesn't. So yeah, if you want to win, you will have to accept taking orders from one or two people. In CoD4 for example, our clanwar team was effectively playing two leaders and depending on who would die first, one of them will be informing the team on what to do and the other is focussing on shooting people. It's a system that can be annoying to some, but people that accept it love you for it; it's that simple. And while a leader isn't appointed by the game itself, you will notice in some games that a person will try to take charge.
            Dota is not Call of Duty. When I made the experience that a suggestion of my team member is clearly losing us the game, I should have the right to not follow it. All your arguments about 1900 games with OD are pointless when instead of letting me decide what I can do best, you just give me commands so in the end I don't even know myself what I'm doing. When you're telling me that I should rush BKB as one of my first items for example, I don't want to do it. Yes, you don't flame me if I do it. But from my experience (and 1900 OD games are quite a lot), it is absolutely retarded to rush a BKB because it removes any dps from my hero. So we lose. This is not what I want it to be, this is just how it is, and playing dota, I simply want to try my best to win the game. If you think you have a better idea how I could play, why don't you create a seperate account and share unit controls?
            I'm not telling my allies what they should do, and they shouldn't tell me. It's alright when you tell your suggestions and plans in a general form. But you simply can not expect someone to follow them when for him it basically means "you should buy bad items and lose the game".

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            Also, what happened to your RIGHT to free speech?
            What's with my right of not getting harmed by words?
            Your RIGHT to free speech doesn't exist in a private place like a video game. If you come to my apartment and you rage at me and flame me, you can not expect it being allowed by your right of free speech. You will get thrown out. Like in the Restaurant (earlier in this thread).
            In short: There is no Right of free speech in private places which includes Dota 2. (private meaning that it's owned by a person or company)

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            I DO have the right to tell people they are doing it wrong, it's my opinion and I can voice it.
            You don't have any right to say anything. You should be happy that you even CAN use a form of chat at all in the game. So you shouldn't abuse it.
            Telling your allies how much you dislike them is clearly abuse of your chat privileges, it's not what they are given you for.
            They are a tool for making the game more entertaining and increase teamwork (both works hand in hand). It's NOT your right for free speech. You can not expect to abuse text chat to grief your team and then leave the room unpunished.
            And yes, punishment obviously doesn't stop flamers, so I'm no longer for it. But that doesn't mean that hurting other peoples feelings is an alright way to do.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            I'm even abiding by politeness rules in most cases and don't user racist slurs when I do decide to cross the line and start hurling insults.
            Which doesn't matter. Nobody cares about what exactly you say. The only point is, your insults have the only purpose to harm your allies. There is no point in even allowing such behaviour, because it's just dumb. There is no reason why would you ever try to harm your allies?

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            And yes, "omg phase boots on crystal maiden srsly", does not sound too friendly, but the CM can defuse the situations with simply stating why he/she got that item or asking what he/she should've gotten instead.
            Which is pointless. First of all, after 1900 games with Crystal Maiden the player will simply feel annoyed having to explain the thing 1900 times, especially when there's other things to do like playing the actual game (chatting is often the biggest mistake you can make, chat while your allies or even yourself are dying).
            Second, it is pointless, because you wouldn't agree with him ever. Even if he stated that pro players do the same build you wouldn't accept that. First hand experience here. I tried building Tranquil Boots on OD some time ago (OMG OMG OMG), every second game my team flamed me for that no matter if we were winning or losing. Telling my team that basically all tournament players such as Dendi also get these items, that they give a nice amount of regen, that I can disassemble them later, that they give me movespeed (talking about pre-nerf tranquil here), that they trigger my aura (OMG OMG OD DOESNT HAVE MANA PROBLEMS), I brought all these arguments every time, nobody cares. The conclusion: Arguing about item builds or reasoning why you do what you do is a complete waste of time. It's like arguing in this forum and then get replies like "Stopped reading right there because you actually used that fact in a sarcastic manner. You deserved the flame. (twice) ".
            Third, the explanation serves no purpose. After all it's me playing my hero and there is no benefit in my team understanding why I'm playing like I do (except of course it has relevance to the game so they can adapt better). I don't need to justify my item build, because there is no benefit from anyone besides me understanding it.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            If this person is so clueless however, it would've been nice telling the team in advance.
            Problem here: You think a person is clueless because you look at his item build and see something that's not "normal", or that you believe is bad. There is no evidence that it isn't you who's clueless ever.
            When someone in my team picks OD, I don't tell him "omg why you bought these items" or "why are you using that skill build". I'm alright with sharing my knowledge, but I don't think I'm the best player on that hero, and I'm definitely not going to take over the responsibility of how he plays that hero. Mostly because I have my own hero to control. If I ask such player the question like "why did you max orb first", then I usually do so later in the game and only on pure interest, maybe I could learn something from him (yes, even if he sucks, there are possibilities to learn from him).

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            This group of people, surely exists, but is really small and is much more easily ignored.
            I have such a guy in almost every game. Maybe it's small (~10% to 20% in my bracket), but it's definitely too big. It's a significant amount of people who flame all game and the sole reason I created this thread in the first place.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            The most abusive thing however, is your teammate calling you an idiot and being right, by proof and reasoning, to do so.
            It doesn't matter. It's an abuse of your chat privileges. You don't gain anything from that (except maybe satisfaction?), he doesn't gain anything from it, in addition to that you're only theorycrafting so it's very hard to actually be right.
            If you say they are roshing and I say they're not, and in the end they were indeed roshing, then you can not call me an idiot for that. Only because you think something happens, and then coincidentally it happened is not a proof for you being right.
            If you tell me "going tranqs on Disruptor is dumb" and in the end I die very often, that doesn't automagically make your statement any right. Even if you have a very good reasoning for it, there is absolutely no evidence. Even worse, it could be that I can not play Disruptor without Tranquils, so if I didn't buy that item, we could have lost even harder.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            People just cannot stand that, as their pride is being hammered into the ground and their mistake is on display for 3 other people as well.
            Because those other 3 people now start to believe the bullcrap that the flamer stated. It's just simply blame. "omg it's all your fault". There is still no proof and no evidence that the flame ever was justified. But it just worsened the situation for everyone, because that flame is a great source of misinformation, especially when it's combined with logical fallacies such as Self-Fullfilling prophecies (omg OD your items are so bad, you are a bad player, you must not go mid. So OD goes hard lane, of course he isn't able to do much. For his allies it's the "proof" that he's indeed a bad player) or mixing up cause and result (OD has no BKB and we're losing. Of course it's because OD is stupid and didn't buy a BKB. It's certainly not because he was simply not able to afford one because we're losing...?).

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            Don't ask me what you're doing wrong, ask the people that are flaming you!
            There is a red thread going through this ... well, thread. It's Don't speculate about things you don't know.
            You don't know how I am in my games. But aparently you think you know better than me how I'm in my games. It's the same problem with "legitimate flame". You are flaming people because you think you know better than them. But you don't. And even if you did, there was no proof that you are right (s.a.). And even if you were right, talking in a disrespectful manner is still not going to improve the quality of your game.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            Attitude and mood can speed up the process where a player crosses the line, but it's not the trigger. The trigger is something that happens in game by either his own doing or his teammates doing. You triggered it by calling a lane, while this kind of flame is hard to justify, there is always a reason.
            Your understanding from trigger seemed to differ slightly from mine. What I mean is, it's usually not your fault for getting flamed. It's usually just an attitude that a flamer brought into your game. It's simply impossible to prevent certain entities from flaming or raging in your game.
            I got severely flamed by a 4players-tournament admin because I asked him if I should help on his lane because I found that it wasn't going so great. I was totally owning that game, still that guy called me "useless trash" and other insults.
            If you want your allies to gank your lane - especially when it's a carry that's not supposed to - then you should at least say something in my opinion. I learned from that experience, next games I ganked earlier, and it took me quite a lot of losses to unlearn that (because my common ganks caused me to be underfarmed, and my team mates flamed me for "not helping" even when I permanently ganked for them).
            For me it's clear that flames of my allies are basically always unjustified, they usually come from the people that I think perform worst, their argumentation often includes logical fallacies and the only thing that their flame changes in me is that I'm less likely to help them.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            But that frustration and the cause of frustration can be overcome by the player and it doesn't result in the player flaming his team for it.
            It's rarely overcome by the player. I have no other explanation for someone just performing incredibly bad (again, that's only my perception of him) and then flaming his allies.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            Look, here's where people will tell you to grow some skin, if you're insulted by someone else being wrong, there isn't a whole lot of places where this can go now is there? I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm not calling you an asshole. I have been saying that considering those stats and what you're saying in this thread, you might want to check your own behavior in the game, because we feel there's a problem there. If you want, we can play together, I live in the country west of yours While I might not be the most skilled teammember as I am right now, I will at least be able to vouch that the examples you're putting up in the forum are genuine.
            Sure, why not.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            Specialization means you learn more on a specific subject(hero) than other people would normally do and often it means you sacrifice your learning time doing this. This means you know more about the hero, but less about the other heroes. Playing a hero many times helps with the learning process and having 2000 games with OD should put you a lot further down the learning curve than other people.

            Well there you go, you try things with him, you sacrifice time that could be spend in other areas of the game learning the intricates of your hero. This is not something we argue about, but if you are that specialized, getting a mek before a forcestaff should not be costing you the game. And again, people will go after you if they smell bullshit, so if you tell them "I'm trying something new" they at least know you're doing these kind of things. However, when I switch itembuilds or do something weird with a hero(like jungling with spectre) I usually do this in a bot game, not a normal game.
            Sure, but the point of the debate if you remember, was that you can not simply use my lifetime stats from pub games to justify the way how I'm playing. I'm simply not god or Dendi. If I get a Mek early in cases where I shouldn't, I WILL underperform. It's not such a problem when your hero is fairly item independent (*looking at Pirate*), but when you're playing a carry, your item decision is a very important part of the game, and if you're unable to survive or play a significant role in any team fight because you don't have what you consider your Core items, it simply doesn't work out, no matter how awesome you play. OD has 315 movementspeed and no escape. There is only so much you can do. If a lion decides to ulti you and you don't have HP items, you WILL die and lose even more money and XP. It's not in your hands. It's in the hands of that Lion.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            What I'm saying is that there's 4 other teammembers picking different heroes, getting OD while, for example, Slark is on your team or a magic immune hero is on the opposing team is a bad idea, as you will be providing your opponents with means to evade a disable lock.
            In the end, someone has to pick the first hero without any information about the enemy teams hero. I instalock OD because it's the best option for me to help our team even if I get counterpicked. I wouldn't be able to help my team on other heroes as much, and I wouldn't be playing dota if I had to play other heroes.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            You can also inform your team that the lone druid is attacking the rax. If they are sincere about winning, they will be much more inclined to port back.
            Of course, and I always do it (although I feel it's unnecessary because of the voice saying that our tower is under attack). But yes, I am informing my team about some guy getting to our rax without us doing anything. From my experience however, I'm not ever going to stick to my allies in that situation, I WILL go TP to base and try everything to stop him if nobody else does. Because I don't like to lose games.

            Originally posted by GoLD_ReaVeR View Post
            It's unlikely however that the mute system stops these kind of players.
            Hence this thread.

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            • I've played with people that get pissed off and still end up doing fine. And while a team where there are no leaders can work
              I don't see how leardership and getting pissed off have anything in common.
              つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Solo Queue

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