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RE: Luna's Nova

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  • Siegfried
    replied
    wtf and why demons would not be a male lion? what that would mean in gameplay, story of it? since it does not say anything besides a beast?

    of course you are familiar with what they saw in dota 1 and 2, but it is nothing but readaptation

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    Now this is complete bullshit.
    Originally posted by Siegfried View Post
    The moon order is matriarchal, but the animals they ride obvious not, the order of the moon, is the same scheme for elune, and they use all kinds of cats as a mount, either males or females
    Matriarchal society doesn't mean the males are missing. Of course they could use male felines... And your "obvious" is not obvious at all. Following same scheme as W3 lore? Why it should be so? I'm aware that Dota 2 lore is poorly executed, that doesn't mean you can start filling up the holes with unrelated stuff.
    Originally posted by Siegfried View Post
    and as you said the luna was "renegade" is now a fighter alone, what was not
    I did not say that.
    Last edited by Manly Mao; 11-24-2013, 12:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    And here I though you are out of nonsensical arguments.
    I've clearly stated that it fits even the new stage of her life. Social group. Read again.
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Furthermore does "Something beautiful and deadly sought a meal in the wilting dusk" sound like a lion?
    Well, yes. Except for the dusk thing, this is pretty much poetic image of stalking lioness.
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Jaguars are not solitary animals.
    Yes, they are.

    And stop abusing term realistic. We're talking about realistic in unrealistic universe framework. Every non-human being in any fantasy is more or less based on something real. That's how it is done. We have to work with our own experience. It doesn't obligate itself to literally follow the image is was based on. And you know nothing about commonness of maned black female felines in that world. That you think that manned lioness is unacceptable while glowing purple-eyed, furry-tailed feline is, that's your problem. It doesn't make one thing less valid than other. Symbolism is another thing and we've just talked about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siegfried
    replied
    Originally posted by Manly Mao View Post
    Oh, you've finally used fine argument. Well done (I mean it).

    But you know, she being the mighty leader of a great army corresponds with "pride and power" symbolism evoked by an image of lion. The army she once have and lost, feeling deprived, wandering alone, when suddenly she finds another prideful being which test her, find her worthy (that's what i got from their first introduction) and offers her to join a new pride/pack/social group. She has been always part of something bigger. Jaguars are mostly solitary animals and that would make more sense if she mounted that thing and become some kind of renegade. But no. Her actions are not based on mere selfish reasons. Another thing, The moon order is clearly matriarchal, which could go well with possible fact that the species of cat we're talking about is too. And that could answer the question why female display usually male feature - because lions are not.

    This idea could work for me.


    The moon order is matriarchal, but the animals they ride obvious not, the order of the moon, is the same scheme for elune, and they use all kinds of cats as a mount, either males or females

    and as you said the luna was "renegade" is now a fighter alone, what was not

    very similar to what happens with some lions who leave the pack

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Spoiler: 
    Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
    What you are describing here is something that is visually jarring, unconventional, unusual. It's not contradicting lore. That's my entire point. We are used to lionesses without manes, lions living on plains, etc, etc. That makes the current Nova unconventional. Not contradicting. Current Nova is a feline beast, and while a mane on a lioness is unconventional, it does not define the gender. So current Nova fits the lore.
    Ignores the symbolism of a lion


    Realistic (comparative more realistic, superlative most realistic)
    Adjective
    expressed or represented as being accurate.

    accurate (comparative accurater or more accurate, superlative accuratest or most accurate)
    Adjective
    In exact or careful conformity to truth; the result of care or pains; free from failure, error, or defect; exact; as, an accurate calculator; an accurate measure; accurate expression, knowledge, etc.

    Purple glowing eyes is not an exact or careful conformity to the truthful representation of real panthers. It is also a ridiculous claim. "Oh, I can totally believe some kind of moon goddess made the panther's eyes glows, but changing the colour of fur and making it longer on a lion falls right outside my ability to believe it."
    Mythical Beast =/= Beast
    Sea pig =/= Pig

    --->---<--

    A legendary creature is an animal whose life is accounted in non-historical or yet to be verified stories that sometime involve the supernatural. However, other legendary animals, such as the unicorn, were documented in accounts of natural history by various scholars of antiquity.[1] Due to the lack of fossils of these creatures, the veracity of these historical recordings is questioned by modern zoologists. Some of the these creatures can also be cryptids, although the terms are not synonymous.
    --Furthermore feline =/= Mythical. Feline = Real world.

    You are goddamn frustrating, you realize that? "Oh, Nova is not a beast because I added an adverb to it." A mythical beast is still a beast. It's right there in the bloody description! Mythical BEAST! You are calling it a beast!
    Its "Mythical Beast". Yes note the Capital "M", denoting a noun, not an adverb.
    Technically Mythical Beasts, don't even exist. It should be called a Mythical Creature.

    • MYTHICAL CREATURE (noun)
    The noun MYTHICAL CREATURE has 1 sense:
    1. a monster renowned in folklore and myth
    [/QUOTE]
    -->So since it is not specifically stated "Mythical Beast, or Mythical Creature. The Feline/Beast is real. Not legendary, thus must be realistic.


    I'm sorry, but if you think the statement 'current Nova is a mythical beast so she isn't a beast' constitutes as an actual argument that maintains the productivity of a debate, then I really got nothing to tell you. This is my last response to you, I'm not going to bother continuing a debate where the other party starts making such ridiculous claims.
    I have just stated the difference between a Mythical Creature/Beast and a Beast,
    English is not the clearest of languages. I hope that clears up the confusion.

    Physically changing a beast, into a mythical being, constitutes as a major change and does not follow the lore, which assumes a sense of realism.


    Originally posted by Manly Mao View Post
    Oh, you've finally used fine argument. Well done (I mean it).

    But you know, she being the mighty leader of a great army corresponds with "pride and power" symbolism evoked by an image of lion.
    She is now the the Moon Rider, this represents a new stage in her life, and her religion which owes itself to selemene. It is highly unlikely a mount that symbolizes her new life, actually refers to her past.

    Furthermore does "Something beautiful and deadly sought a meal in the wilting dusk" sound like a lion?

    The army she once have and lost, feeling deprived, wandering alone, when suddenly she finds another prideful being which test her, find her worthy (that's what i got from their first introduction) and offers her to join a new pride/pack/social group. She has been always part of something bigger. Jaguars are mostly solitary animals and that would make more sense if she mounted that thing and become some kind of renegade. But no. Her actions are not based on mere selfish reasons. Another thing, The moon order is clearly matriarchal, which could go well with possible fact that the species of cat we're talking about is too. And that could answer the question why female display usually male feature - because lions are not. This idea could work for me.
    Jaguars are not solitary animals.
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 11-24-2013, 12:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    Oh, you've finally used fine argument. Well done (I mean it).

    But you know, she being the mighty leader of a great army corresponds with "pride and power" symbolism evoked by an image of lion. The army she once have and lost, feeling deprived, wandering alone, when suddenly she finds another prideful being which test her, find her worthy (that's what i got from their first introduction) and offers her to join a new pride/pack/social group. She has been always part of something bigger. Jaguars are mostly solitary animals and that would make more sense if she mounted that thing and become some kind of renegade. But no. Her actions are not based on mere selfish reasons. Another thing, The moon order is clearly matriarchal, which could go well with possible fact that the species of cat we're talking about is too. And that could answer the question why female display usually male feature - because lions are not.

    This idea could work for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siegfried
    replied
    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    Which part of symbolism do you not understand?

    Lions symbolize power and strength. Lions are generally associated with being savannah animals, not forest animals.

    Lions can run faster than panthers or black jaguars, but they are generally regarded as cumbersome compared to agile stalking panthers or black jaguars.
    >>king of jungle<< not more to say

    Leave a comment:


  • Hefaistus
    replied
    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    Snip
    What you are describing here is something that is visually jarring, unconventional, unusual. It's not contradicting lore. That's my entire point. We are used to lionesses without manes, lions living on plains, etc, etc. That makes the current Nova unconventional. Not contradicting. Current Nova is a feline beast, and while a mane on a lioness is unconventional, it does not define the gender. So current Nova fits the lore.

    Oh, and Gyro's copter does not use any magic. It's explicitly stated in his lore:
    "[...] the erstwhile engineer left with something far more interesting: a long-forgotten, incomplete schematic for a Gyrocopter, the world’s first manned, non-magical flying device."

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    The eyes are possibly purple due to the goddess --Moon-- this is a tiny change and actually makes sense. So the panther is realistic in the first place. Realistic =/= real, = close to real.
    Realistic (comparative more realistic, superlative most realistic)
    Adjective
    expressed or represented as being accurate.

    accurate (comparative accurater or more accurate, superlative accuratest or most accurate)
    Adjective
    In exact or careful conformity to truth; the result of care or pains; free from failure, error, or defect; exact; as, an accurate calculator; an accurate measure; accurate expression, knowledge, etc.

    Purple glowing eyes is not an exact or careful conformity to the truthful representation of real panthers. It is also a ridiculous claim. "Oh, I can totally believe some kind of moon goddess made the panther's eyes glows, but changing the colour of fur and making it longer on a lion falls right outside my ability to believe it."

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    The definition you have given for a beast is fine. However the current nova is not a beast. It is a "Mythical beast", a black lion is an urban legend-- legend/Myth/---
    You are goddamn frustrating, you realize that? "Oh, Nova is not a beast because I added an adverb to it." A mythical beast is still a beast. It's right there in the bloody description! Mythical BEAST! You are calling it a beast!

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    The point of debate isn't about convincing someone that they are wrong. It is about putting forward an argument that proves they are wrong. With the necessary counter arguments so that it is water tight. I have yet to see proof.
    I'm sorry, but if you think the statement 'current Nova is a mythical beast so she isn't a beast' constitutes as an actual argument that maintains the productivity of a debate, then I really got nothing to tell you. This is my last response to you, I'm not going to bother continuing a debate where the other party starts making such ridiculous claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siegfried
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    We are considering representation, not historical attributes. This is artwork therefore representation if of importance.

    Lions are represented as a Savanna animal. People don't think Lion -->Forest.
    They think Lion --> Savanna

    -----------------------------
    Again Lions are not considered fast, you don't associate speed with lions. You associate strength with lions.
    You associate speed, and hunting ability (stalking, prowling etc) with Cats, with Jaguars, with Tigers.



    http://www.pure-spirit.com/more-anim...guar-symbolism

    This pretty much describes luna. So a Jaguar should be more apt, in a literary sense.
    what you think when you speak the king of "" Jungle ""? what is a >>>>jungle<<<< for you?

    wtf lion not considered fast? the second feline more fast in the world? only lose for cheetah, would not be better to leave heryellow and spots?

    if we look at the reality, she could never mount any feline, you know the oversize right?

    Leave a comment:


  • d.phoenixxx
    replied
    Originally posted by Siegfried View Post
    2) no?only species of lion living in today, living in the plains

    many species of lions lived in forests, mountains, and caves, but became extinct, if food conditions, the animal lives as well

    3)not again? Lions and Lionesses reach average speed between 70 and 80km / h compared to only 50km / h, leopards or panthers
    Which part of symbolism do you not understand?

    Lions symbolize power and strength. Lions are generally associated with being savannah animals, not forest animals.

    Lions can run faster than panthers or black jaguars, but they are generally regarded as cumbersome compared to agile stalking panthers or black jaguars.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Siegfried View Post
    1)that's just personal taste
    2) no?only species of lion living in today, living in the plains
    many species of lions lived in forests, mountains, and caves, but became extinct, if food conditions, the animal lives as well

    3)not again? Lions and Lionesses reach average speed between 70 and 80km / h compared to only 50km / h, leopards or panthers





    forget dota1, dota1 is dead,you alredy saw, the best representation of the legiom commander? no matter what the hero was or had in dota 1, need not be equal to dota 2

    I say, what they said to me with him, "" you do not think a male lion can be as cool as a female panther? As you are sexist guy ""
    We are considering representation, not historical attributes. This is artwork therefore representation if of importance.

    Lions are represented as a Savanna animal. People don't think Lion -->Forest.
    They think Lion --> Savanna

    -----------------------------
    Again Lions are not considered fast, you don't associate speed with lions. You associate strength with lions.
    You associate speed, and hunting ability (stalking, prowling etc) with Cats, with Jaguars, with Tigers.



    In Mayan mythology, the jaguar was seen as the ruler of the Underworld, and as such, a symbol of the night sun and darkness........

    The jaguar is representative of power, ferocity, and valor; he is the embodiment of aggressiveness. For some, the jaguar represents the power to face one’s fears, or to confront one’s enemies. However, they are also associated with vision, which means both their ability to see during the night and to look into the dark parts of the human heart. The jaguar often warns of disaster, he does not offer any reassurance. Along with physical vision, jaguars are also associated with prescience and the foreknowledge of things to come. Cats have binocular vision, meaning each eye can work by itself, which provides them with better depth perception. This gives more evidence to their connection with vision and foresight.
    http://www.pure-spirit.com/more-anim...guar-symbolism

    This pretty much describes luna. So a Jaguar should be more apt, in a literary sense.


    Ever wonder why Blizzard a high quality production company that spent $$$ making Wc3 lore, through WoW and Wc1,2,3 etc. Decided that ELUNE's followers (The Moon deity) rode Jaguars.
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 11-24-2013, 10:18 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siegfried
    replied
    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    I think all of you are missing the point.

    The issue is not about whether Nova with mane or no mane is realistic.

    The issue is about
    1) Being aesthetically pleasing.
    2) Lore - Fitting the Bio and Voicelines
    3) Justifying gameplay mechanics.

    1) Old Nova model had better color diversity. There were real shades of black compared to the new Nova which is just monotonous blue-black. There is very little color contrast and as a whole, Luna looks bland.

    2a) Voicelines part: Its pretty clear, Nova is a girl name. Good girl is a phrase used to describe Nova. (Based on common sense, Lions with manes = male. Lions without manes = female. Again, this is a generalization. There may be exceptions, but its akin to women with beards in real life. Sure there exist such women, but you do not generally associate that as a feminine quality.)
    2b) Bio part: Nightsilver Woods is likely a jungle or a forest. Lions live on plains, steppes etc. Panthers live in jungles, forests, woods etc.

    3) Luna has the fastest starting movespeed. A quality associated with panthers, which are generally associated with speed more so than lions, which are generally associated with dominance/power.


    Again, I like to emphasize on the point that even fantasy is anchored somewhat on reality and the experiences we get from reality.
    Sure in fantasy, we can have whatever we want, but anything ever deviating from reality is usually accompanied with reasons, justifications and setting.
    Gyrocopter might defy the laws of physics in our world, but perhaps Gyrocopter's machine is powered by magic partly too?
    Batrider's bat does not breathe fire, however, Batrider's bat is extremely large. This is not hard to justify since we can have eagles and we can have real giant eagles too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast's_Eagle

    The fantasy of female lions with manes CAN exist. But just because something CAN exist, does it mean it SHOULD?
    Is it the best representation of the hero?
    A black panther with ties to Dota 1 heritage and 2012 Dota 2 heritage; is more associated with feminine qualities; is more agile and nimble; has more ties to reality
    SHOULD be more preferred over a bluish-black lion with a mane that clips into the ground and front paws?

    No?
    1)that's just personal taste
    2) no?only species of lion living in today, living in the plains

    many species of lions lived in forests, mountains, and caves, but became extinct, if food conditions, the animal lives as well

    3)not again? Lions and Lionesses reach average speed between 70 and 80km / h compared to only 50km / h, leopards or panthers



    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    The fantasy of female lions with manes CAN exist. But just because something CAN exist, does it mean it SHOULD?
    Is it the best representation of the hero?
    A black panther with ties to Dota 1 heritage and 2012 Dota 2 heritage; is more associated with feminine qualities; is more agile and nimble; has more ties to reality
    SHOULD be more preferred over a bluish-black lion with a mane that clips into the ground and front paws?

    No?
    forget dota1, dota1 is dead,you alredy saw, the best representation of the legiom commander? no matter what the hero was or had in dota 1, need not be equal to dota 2

    I say, what they said to me with him, "" you do not think a male lion can be as cool as a female panther? As you are sexist guy ""

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Spoiler: 
    Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
    When I said you were acting cocky, I was referring to your statement that I should do my duty as a mod by moving the thread to the appropriate section. The appropriate section in this case is the Luna model feedback section, which is private. Any threads posted in there are only visible to the developers and the OP. Had I moved this thread when you had told me to, you would be hindered in continuing the discussion since there wouldn't be any thread available for you to discuss in.
    So in summary, when I said that, I was talking about the thread, not about you.



    I didn't address your other points, because I doubt I can convince you otherwise, mostly because of this point that you keep bringing up:



    First of all, it really doesn't. You say the lore states it needs to be realistic, because it uses the word 'Beast'. Well, let's look up the meaning of beast then:
    According to wiktionary:
    Noun
    beast (plural beasts)
    Any animal other than a human; usually only applied to land vertebrates, especially large or dangerous four-footed ones.

    According to Webster:
    Full Definition of BEAST

    1
    a : a four-footed mammal as distinguished from a human being, a lower vertebrate, and an invertebrate
    b : a lower animal as distinguished from a human being
    c : an animal as distinguished from a plant
    d : an animal under human control

    According to Oxford:
    noun
    an animal, especially a large or dangerous four-footed one.

    So according to Wiktionary, Webster, and Oxford, Luna's new mount is a beast. So, hey, it is in accord to the lore.

    Second of all, you cling to the notion of realism in a world where we got fire-breathing bats, an even less realistic feline mount for Mirana (I've never seen a white whatever-that-thing-is with blue patches of fur), a helicopter that according to every law of physics should not be able to even take off let alone fly, some kind of very small rhinoceros (or whatever it is that Chen rides), a horse that is seemingly undead, a horse that is on fire, and most of all, dis raptor.

    Third of all, something you didn't address yourself, the fact that the panther was not realistic in the first place - as far as I know, panthers don't have eyes that glow purple. They also don't come with patches of blue fur (in this case, on the tail). I'm also pretty sure its teeth are far too big for his mouth to be able to realistically close.

    If you insist on realism, fine. Go ahead. But I won't bother with continuing a discussion when it becomes obvious there is no possibility of convincing the other party. I'm sure we both can do something more productive with our time than needlessly dragging out a locked discussion.
    The eyes are possibly purple due to the goddess --Moon-- this is a tiny change and actually makes sense. So the panther is realistic in the first place. Realistic =/= real, = close to real.

    The definition you have given for a beast is fine. However the current nova is not a beast. It is a "Mythical beast", a black lion is an urban legend-- legend/Myth/---


    The point of debate isn't about convincing someone that they are wrong. It is about putting forward an argument that proves they are wrong. With the necessary counter arguments so that it is water tight. I have yet to see proof.


    Btw Hidden/Spoiler tags would be nice so its not so huge


    Originally posted by Manly Mao View Post
    This particular does. Which is part of bigger, overally fantastic one. I'm amazed how overly concerned are you about the fact that a fictional feline similar to one, you know, from the real world, displays a slightly different traits than you are used to. I know there has to be some level of realism to make any story acceptable. However, this issue doesn't really go against it.

    Try to look at that this way: Luna seems like an emancipated, strong, independent woman. Isn't it actually fitting, that her mount connects for you unconnectable masculine characteristic (mane) with feminine base (lioness).

    Or maybe not... Ok man, I'm just trying
    If we are talking about literature and the representation of animals etc.-->

    Luna is strong and independent. Not emancipated as she is restricted to Selemene command? She is in no way masculine though, being a strong and independent woman does not make you masculine. Having a muscular body/stout, usually tall, with a stoic and brave and involved personality, would make her more masculine like.

    Luna is meant to be Quick, and a hunter. She makes numerous comments about the night, going on the prowl, etc.
    These are not the usual characteristics you associate with a Lion. You do not instantly think Lion "Prowl, very fast".
    Lions in literature signify, Pride and Power and act generally as a symbol of royalty. Since they are the Kings of the wild. Lions also signify bravery, courage, strength. You do not think of a fleeting lion who is a quick runner, but instead of a strong stead fast lion.
    In literature generally Lions are different from other cats, they do not associate with the attributes that Tigers, Cheetahs, Leopards, Panthers, Jaguars, have.
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 11-24-2013, 10:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • d.phoenixxx
    replied
    I think all of you are missing the point.

    The issue is not about whether Nova with mane or no mane is realistic.

    The issue is about
    1) Being aesthetically pleasing.
    2) Lore - Fitting the Bio and Voicelines
    3) Justifying gameplay mechanics.

    1) Old Nova model had better color diversity. There were real shades of black compared to the new Nova which is just monotonous blue-black. There is very little color contrast and as a whole, Luna looks bland.

    2a) Voicelines part: Its pretty clear, Nova is a girl name. Good girl is a phrase used to describe Nova. (Based on common sense, Lions with manes = male. Lions without manes = female. Again, this is a generalization. There may be exceptions, but its akin to women with beards in real life. Sure there exist such women, but you do not generally associate that as a feminine quality.)
    2b) Bio part: Nightsilver Woods is likely a jungle or a forest. Lions live on plains, steppes etc. Panthers live in jungles, forests, woods etc.

    3) Luna has the fastest starting movespeed. A quality associated with panthers, which are generally associated with speed more so than lions, which are generally associated with dominance/power.


    Again, I like to emphasize on the point that even fantasy is anchored somewhat on reality and the experiences we get from reality.
    Sure in fantasy, we can have whatever we want, but anything ever deviating from reality is usually accompanied with reasons, justifications and setting.
    Gyrocopter might defy the laws of physics in our world, but perhaps Gyrocopter's machine is powered by magic partly too?
    Batrider's bat does not breathe fire, however, Batrider's bat is extremely large. This is not hard to justify since we can have eagles and we can have real giant eagles too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast's_Eagle

    The fantasy of female lions with manes CAN exist. But just because something CAN exist, does it mean it SHOULD?
    Is it the best representation of the hero?
    A black panther with ties to Dota 1 heritage and 2012 Dota 2 heritage; is more associated with feminine qualities; is more agile and nimble; has more ties to reality
    SHOULD be more preferred over a bluish-black lion with a mane that clips into the ground and front paws?

    No?

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    the lore states realism
    This particular does. Which is part of bigger, overally fantastic one. I'm amazed how overly concerned are you about the fact that a fictional feline similar to one, you know, from the real world, displays a slightly different traits than you are used to. I know there has to be some level of realism to make any story acceptable. However, this issue doesn't really go against it.

    Try to look at that this way: Luna seems like an emancipated, strong, independent woman. Isn't it actually fitting, that her mount connects for you unconnectable masculine characteristic (mane) with feminine base (lioness).

    Or maybe not... Ok man, I'm just trying
    Last edited by Manly Mao; 11-24-2013, 06:52 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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