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RE: Luna's Nova

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  • Hefaistus
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Well if you are not directly threatening me, then I am on safe ground.

    Now the part I am confused about, is

    -->?So this wasn't a threat? "action would hinder you more"
    This is all kind of worrying.

    If you are sure that if we continue with a mannered debate, that you won't randomly abuse me, then I would be happy to proceed, if you are willing also.
    When I said you were acting cocky, I was referring to your statement that I should do my duty as a mod by moving the thread to the appropriate section. The appropriate section in this case is the Luna model feedback section, which is private. Any threads posted in there are only visible to the developers and the OP. Had I moved this thread when you had told me to, you would be hindered in continuing the discussion since there wouldn't be any thread available for you to discuss in.
    So in summary, when I said that, I was talking about the thread, not about you.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    From the source you gave it pretty much states "Lionesses with manes" are caused from Mutation "Disruption of Embryo-Exposure to testosterone"

    Also you never addressed my other points.
    I didn't address your other points, because I doubt I can convince you otherwise, mostly because of this point that you keep bringing up:

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    the lore states realism
    First of all, it really doesn't. You say the lore states it needs to be realistic, because it uses the word 'Beast'. Well, let's look up the meaning of beast then:
    According to wiktionary:
    Noun
    beast (plural beasts)
    Any animal other than a human; usually only applied to land vertebrates, especially large or dangerous four-footed ones.

    According to Webster:
    Full Definition of BEAST

    1
    a : a four-footed mammal as distinguished from a human being, a lower vertebrate, and an invertebrate
    b : a lower animal as distinguished from a human being
    c : an animal as distinguished from a plant
    d : an animal under human control

    According to Oxford:
    noun
    an animal, especially a large or dangerous four-footed one.

    So according to Wiktionary, Webster, and Oxford, Luna's new mount is a beast. So, hey, it is in accord to the lore.

    Second of all, you cling to the notion of realism in a world where we got fire-breathing bats, an even less realistic feline mount for Mirana (I've never seen a white whatever-that-thing-is with blue patches of fur), a helicopter that according to every law of physics should not be able to even take off let alone fly, some kind of very small rhinoceros (or whatever it is that Chen rides), a horse that is seemingly undead, a horse that is on fire, and most of all, dis raptor.

    Third of all, something you didn't address yourself, the fact that the panther was not realistic in the first place - as far as I know, panthers don't have eyes that glow purple. They also don't come with patches of blue fur (in this case, on the tail). I'm also pretty sure its teeth are far too big for his mouth to be able to realistically close.

    If you insist on realism, fine. Go ahead. But I won't bother with continuing a discussion when it becomes obvious there is no possibility of convincing the other party. I'm sure we both can do something more productive with our time than needlessly dragging out a locked discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Manly Mao View Post
    A realistic creature in unrealistic made up universe.
    the lore states realism

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    The main problem is the mane. The black lion thing is just emphasized by the main, without the main it would like any other panther.
    I am not clutching at straws. Also you say it foryouself Black lions don't exist. Also in the mythology it clearly states they are mythical beings. In the Luna Lore it references a beast a realistic creature.
    A realistic creature in unrealistic made up universe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Manly Mao View Post
    As melanism is proven-to-exist condition in all Panthera species except lions, it doesn't take an exceptionally imaginative individual to accept a black one. That doesn't make it look any.less.feline.

    And being part of one's mythology doesn't exactly contradict the possibility of verifiable existence - what about leucistic deers which are common part of Celtic mythology or chinese white pheomelanin-lackin tigers which are actually pretty common nowadays due to inbreeding in captivity (interfamily one - genetic disorders - yaaaay humans!).

    Seems to me like you're grasping at straws just to have your way. I accept that mane is quite a damage to Nova's femininity, but again, this is goddamn fantasy game. You are able to accept bat big enough to carry a person, but no so much a possibility of the mane of this one specific feline species being not a secondary sex characteristic exclusive for males? Manes' solemn evolutionary purpose is to make a male seemingly bigger and more intimidating. What if this species of feline is more matriarchal? The females are the head of the pride (if there's one) needed to put on a show when it comes to fight over control of it. FOR EXAMPLE

    It's not so hard to accept it and move on.
    The main problem is the mane. The black lion thing is just emphasized by the main, without the main it would like any other panther.
    I am not clutching at straws. Also you say it foryouself Black lions don't exist. Also in the mythology it clearly states they are mythical beings. In the Luna Lore it references a beast a realistic creature.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manly Mao
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    When have you ever seen a black Lion. Exactly you have not. This beast is not meant to be mythical, as it is "beast" not "monster". Therefore we can ascertain that it has to be a realistic looking animal. Panthers are Black so are fitting. Lions are not black so are not fitting.
    As melanism is proven-to-exist condition in all Panthera species except lions, it doesn't take an exceptionally imaginative individual to accept a black one. That doesn't make it look any.less.feline.

    And being part of one's mythology doesn't exactly contradict the possibility of verifiable existence - what about leucistic deers which are common part of Celtic mythology or chinese white pheomelanin-lackin tigers which are actually pretty common nowadays due to inbreeding in captivity (interfamily one - genetic disorders - yaaaay humans!).

    Seems to me like you're grasping at straws just to have your way. I accept that mane is quite a damage to Nova's femininity, but again, this is goddamn fantasy game. You are able to accept bat big enough to carry a person, but no so much a possibility of the mane of this one specific feline species being not a secondary sex characteristic exclusive for males? Manes' solemn evolutionary purpose is to make a male seemingly bigger and more intimidating. What if this species of feline is more matriarchal? The females are the head of the pride (if there's one) needed to put on a show when it comes to fight over control of it. FOR EXAMPLE

    It's not so hard to accept it and move on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
    "I know there are lionesses with manes, but I'm going to say they don't exist anyway. Even now that I've been proven wrong, I'm going to say they don't exist."
    And with that I'm no longer going to bother continuing this discussion.



    What the hell are you even on about? I am threatening you? Using my position to quell any discussion that is not advantageous to me? I was talking about the thread in general. I was warning that if people can't go into a discussion without going "fuck blizzard" or anything like that, that then the thread would be shut down. I was not talking about the statement 'This is against the lore'. It may be a very gross misconception, but it was not reason to close anything.
    I told people that this thread should not even be here, but that I was allowing it because there otherwise would not be a discussion. You then start telling me I should do my job as a moderator. Me withholding my abilities to shut down threads or move them to where you can't even see them, even after you specifically said I should use them, is what kept this thread running.

    Quelling a supposedly losing discussion by threat of power, what a bloody joke. It's a good idea of you to stop replying, cause holy hell, you have seriously pissed me off with that last statement. I hadn't considered taking any kind of action against you once, because it was just a minor discussion. Quit acting as though you were some kind of victim of the system.
    Well if you are not directly threatening me, then I am on safe ground.

    Now the part I am confused about, is
    And here's my advise in further discussions when mods get involved: don't get cocky and try to challenge the Mod into taking action when it's obvious such action would hinder you more.
    It's a good idea of you to stop replying, cause holy hell, you have seriously pissed me off with that last statement
    -->?So this wasn't a threat? "action would hinder you more"
    This is all kind of worrying.

    If you are sure that if we continue with a mannered debate, that you won't randomly abuse me, then I would be happy to proceed, if you are willing also.

    "I know there are lionesses with manes, but I'm going to say they don't exist anyway. Even now that I've been proven wrong, I'm going to say they don't exist."
    From the source you gave it pretty much states "Lionesses with manes" are caused from Mutation "Disruption of Embryo-Exposure to testosterone"

    Also you never addressed my other points.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hefaistus
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    I know they can, the point that is a very rare condition. It is not something you typically see. Therefore it is considered to not the norm......
    Lionesses do not have manes, is a perfectly fine generalization.
    "I know there are lionesses with manes, but I'm going to say they don't exist anyway. Even now that I've been proven wrong, I'm going to say they don't exist."
    And with that I'm no longer going to bother continuing this discussion.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    And this is the point where I will no longer reply simply for the benefit of my own safety, so that I don't get abused. You have now proven by this statement, you cannot argue in a fair or mannered way. You use the privilege that you were given, in a dishonorable and despotic manner.
    You refuse to dispute in an even manner and prefer to push the fact that you are privileged in the belief that makes you "better than me". I would say you would have the view that "police" are better than citizens. In fact we are all and should be treated equally. I am challenging a mod, this is a fair challenge. Just because you re a volunteer moderator does not mean having a debate with you should be impossible.

    Even as a moderator you are my equal. You have more responsibility than me towards this forum, however you are equal to me when debating. It is not your position which dictates the answer (in a debate), it is your ability to argue. Simply put you instead of creating a coherent debate. Prefer to threat with power.

    I have not broken any forum rules, and if you still think that even a threat of "action" is necessary, then I believe you to have misunderstood me. You take a debate personally. This is sad. Debates are to ensure progress, not to massage the victors ego.
    What the hell are you even on about? I am threatening you? Using my position to quell any discussion that is not advantageous to me? I was talking about the thread in general. I was warning that if people can't go into a discussion without going "fuck blizzard" or anything like that, that then the thread would be shut down. I was not talking about the statement 'This is against the lore'. It may be a very gross misconception, but it was not reason to close anything.
    I told people that this thread should not even be here, but that I was allowing it because there otherwise would not be a discussion. You then start telling me I should do my job as a moderator. Me withholding my abilities to shut down threads or move them to where you can't even see them, even after you specifically said I should use them, is what kept this thread running.

    Quelling a supposedly losing discussion by threat of power, what a bloody joke. It's a good idea of you to stop replying, cause holy hell, you have seriously pissed me off with that last statement. I hadn't considered taking any kind of action against you once, because it was just a minor discussion. Quit acting as though you were some kind of victim of the system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siegfried
    replied
    so people, you have no more, the argument of "lore" to use, what will be next?

    a small change, the exchange of a black cat, by another cat, need all this mobilization?

    as I recall, said that dota 2 is not the same thing as dota1, and worse things can change

    I still hope to change the color of the ogre mage not to be as same as dota1

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
    I don't know what lore you think I am referring to, but I am referring to the official lore from Valve, as found in the game, and in the Heropedia. I also mentioned that Nova is indeed her name, I merely stated that her name is not stated in the official lore from Valve, merely in Luna's voicelines.
    I said "you posted" obviously the lore in the thread you posted. Derp. Anyway my point still stands.


    When have you seen a panther with blue fur on its tail and purple glowing eyes? You don't get to pull the 'realistic looking' -card when your precious panther was severely lacking in that department as well.
    Furthermore, there have been reports of black lions in the 19th century. There was also a lion in the Glasgow Zoo during the 80's that had a genetic defective that gave him a black mane.
    Only reports, they don't actually exist. The pictures showing such things are manipulated and proven to be a hoax. http://karlshuker.blogspot.co.uk/201...anism-and.html
    Effectively for it to happen the lion would have to live its whole life in the dark.


    Actually, Lionesses can have manes:
    Rare Maned Lionesses Explained.
    Mombo’s Maned Lionesses.
    I know they can, the point that is a very rare condition. It is not something you typically see. Therefore it is considered to not the norm......
    Lionesses do not have manes, is a perfectly fine generalization.

    And yes, Valve can indeed use the mount into the one you posted - the lore merely says that Nova is a feline. Similarly, Cerberus is still considered a dog, despite having three heads. Besides, we often have multi-headed animals in real life as well. We still consider a two headed sheep a sheep, a two headed snake a snake, etcetera
    .
    This ignores all my points. Again the "lore says its merely feline", so you would agree with a 3 headed lion with five hundred legs, demonic wings, demonic horns, and udders?


    Donkey's are feline these days?
    Besides, you are taking my visual design =/= lore in the wrong way. it indicates that the mount's visual design does not matter a large degree, as long as it remains recognizable as a feline. Is Luna's mount a feline? Obviously so.
    How about a feline that looks almost exactly like a donkey?


    And here's my advise in further discussions when mods get involved: don't get cocky and try to challenge the Mod into taking action when it's obvious such action would hinder you more.
    And this is the point where I will no longer reply simply for the benefit of my own safety, so that I don't get abused. You have now proven by this statement, you cannot argue in a fair or mannered way. You use the privilege that you were given, in a dishonorable and despotic manner.
    You refuse to dispute in an even manner and prefer to push the fact that you are privileged in the belief that makes you "better than me". I would say you would have the view that "police" are better than citizens. In fact we are all and should be treated equally. I am challenging a mod, this is a fair challenge. Just because you re a volunteer moderator does not mean having a debate with you should be impossible.

    Even as a moderator you are my equal. You have more responsibility than me towards this forum, however you are equal to me when debating. It is not your position which dictates the answer (in a debate), it is your ability to argue. Simply put you instead of creating a coherent debate. Prefer to threat with power.

    I have not broken any forum rules, and if you still think that even a threat of "action" is necessary, then I believe you to have misunderstood me. You take a debate personally. This is sad. Debates are to ensure progress, not to massage the victors ego.
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 11-23-2013, 04:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hefaistus
    replied
    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Voice lines are of more importance than the Lore written by you (fan/volunteer moderator/ what ever title you wish) as opposed to being written by Valve. So Yes her name is Nova, and we must respect that until, Valve says otherwise.
    I don't know what lore you think I am referring to, but I am referring to the official lore from Valve, as found in the game, and in the Heropedia. I also mentioned that Nova is indeed her name, I merely stated that her name is not stated in the official lore from Valve, merely in Luna's voicelines.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    -->Feline "beast’s massive feline form sat in the open, attentive and waiting"
    When have you ever seen a black Lion. Exactly you have not. This beast is not meant to be mythical, as it is "beast" not "monster". Therefore we can ascertain that it has to be a realistic looking animal. Panthers are Black so are fitting. Lions are not black so are not fitting.
    When have you seen a panther with blue fur on its tail and purple glowing eyes? You don't get to pull the 'realistic looking' -card when your precious panther was severely lacking in that department as well.
    Furthermore, there have been reports of black lions in the 19th century. There was also a lion in the Glasgow Zoo during the 80's that had a genetic defective that gave him a black mane.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    You do not get female lions with manes. This is blatantly a lion. You do not get black lions. Unless you are telling me that by this logic, that Valve could change the mount into this http://blacky-cat.deviantart.com/art...-Sky-337107722

    As no where does it specifically state that the beast didn't have wings. Heck how about they make the Beast have 20 arms and 3 heads and 4 tails. Yet still call it a "beast (in an animal sense)" and a "feline".
    Ofc these are exaggerations, but the point still stands.
    Actually, Lionesses can have manes:
    Rare Maned Lionesses Explained.
    Mombo’s Maned Lionesses.

    And yes, Valve can indeed use the mount into the one you posted - the lore merely says that Nova is a feline. Similarly, Cerberus is still considered a dog, despite having three heads. Besides, we often have multi-headed animals in real life as well. We still consider a two headed sheep a sheep, a two headed snake a snake, etcetera.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Visual Design =/= lore. Okay okay, how about we turn the mount into a donkey. Visual Design =/= lore. Because that donkey wouldn't be lore breaking at all.

    Even if it was a lion in the lore. Its a FEMALE therefore a mane should not exist....
    Donkey's are feline these days?
    Besides, you are taking my visual design =/= lore in the wrong way. it indicates that the mount's visual design does not matter a large degree, as long as it remains recognizable as a feline. Is Luna's mount a feline? Obviously so.

    Originally posted by Crowfeather View Post
    It is bad practice to start a debate with someone. Then threaten them. I would advise you in further discussions not to threaten them, as this causes the following issues:

    It hinders productivity of the discussion.
    It undermines your argument and makes you look weak.
    It makes you look like a despot.
    And here's my advise in further discussions when mods get involved: don't get cocky and try to challenge the Mod into taking action when it's obvious such action would hinder you more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Khress
    replied
    i love the old luna model. setting lore and such aside.

    the old model had style, had beauty, had elegance, had awesomeness, she was just awesome.

    the new one is none of the above. and thats sad.

    Leave a comment:


  • ividyon
    replied
    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    I do not understand why the bunch of you would suddenly jump into this Luna revert change thread with respect to lore and demand that the change is perfectly fine, when you guys do not even care that Luna was riding a panther in the first place.
    Quite simple: in order to fight the illusion that a vocal minority's complaints about a perfectly fine change reflect the community's opinions. People who "don't care about the change" are obviously fine with it, since they're not taking it to the forums like you lot. And it doesn't take much thought to realize that negative opinions are much easier carried to forums and open places than positive ones, which, not being urgent, mostly remain hidden. The vast majority of Dota players I know and I talked about the patch changes love the lion, which makes Luna look far less cartoonish as it puts her mount in-line with her own very realistic depiction, rather than having her ride a manga battlecat with comically huge eyes and fangs.

    The lion is fine. Keep it. Many others see it that way, and people throwing a fit in this thread are not a representation of the community as a whole.
    Last edited by ividyon; 11-23-2013, 03:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • stenliii
    replied
    Like i care for a F-ing animal that i barely see it in game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crowfeather
    replied
    Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
    Right. Allow me to shoot down one pesky statement that keeps popping up, one that also extends to cosmetic items: The mount change is not lore related. What does the lore say about Nova? Not a whole lot. Her name isn't even mentioned in any lore - only in the voicelines.
    Voice lines are of more importance than the Lore written by you (fan/volunteer moderator/ what ever title you wish/ assuming that you wrote it as you posted it) as opposed to being written by Valve. So Yes her name is Nova, and we must respect that until, Valve says otherwise.

    So here's what is established by lore and voicelines: the mount was used by Selemene as a test for Luna (bio), she's a girl (voiceline), she's feline (bio), and she's named Nova (voiceline). That's it.
    -->Feline "beast’s massive feline form sat in the open, attentive and waiting"
    When have you ever seen a black Lion. Exactly you have not. This beast is not meant to be mythical, as it is "beast" not "monster". Therefore we can ascertain that it has to be a realistic looking animal. Panthers are Black so are fitting. Lions are not black so are not fitting.

    DotA lore does not apply. Nowhere does it say that the mount was a panther, nowhere does it say that female felines can't have manes.
    You do not get female lions with manes. This is blatantly a lion. You do not get black lions. Unless you are telling me that by this logic, that Valve could change the mount into this http://blacky-cat.deviantart.com/art...-Sky-337107722

    As no where does it specifically state that the beast didn't have wings. Heck how about they make the Beast have 20 arms and 3 heads and 4 tails. Yet still call it a "beast (in an animal sense)" and a "feline".
    Ofc these are exaggerations, but the point still stands.

    This visual change does not influence the lore, let alone contradict the lore in any way, shape, or form. Visual Design =/= Lore.
    Visual Design =/= lore. Okay okay, how about we turn the mount into a donkey. Visual Design =/= lore. Because that donkey wouldn't be lore breaking at all.

    Even if it was a lion in the lore. Its a FEMALE therefore a mane should not exist....






    The lore section is always a bit less strict than the other sections because of the naturally subjective nature of the lore. But if you wish I perform my duties, then sure, I'd be more than happy to move this to the appropriate section. The private one. Where you can't continue the discussion.
    This is something people care a lot about, and I'm willing to allow a discussion on the matter, even if it's not lore related, provided that it remains mature. Unfortunately, I get constantly proven that people are not capable of that. As such, people need to be reminded on what the situation is concerning the thread.
    Summary so far: this thread does not belong here, I'm allowing it for now, don't get too cocky. I am watching.
    (You are asserting that this thread, does belong, because it does not fit your inherent beliefs on the topic it is debating. The whole idea of a debate is to help clarify/define or find a resolution to the original statement/problem, and to bring up suggestions of improvements which are befitting. Therefore it is senseless to assert that this debate is in invalid, simply because it does not conform with your preconceptions on the matter. This assertion goes against the whole point of a debate.)

    It is bad practice to start a debate with someone. Then threaten them. I would advise you in further discussions not to threaten them, as this causes the following issues:

    It hinders productivity of the discussion.
    It undermines your argument and makes you look weak.
    It makes you look like a despot.

    --------------------------------

    Basically to sum my points up

    1. Nova is a feline more specifically a large cat. A realistic cat, an animal in the real world, not fantasy.
    2. Nova is black in all models.
    3. Nova in the new model has is a lion. The problem with this being not that its a lion, but that it has a MANE. Female lions do not have manes.
    4. Furthermore to add to the last point, Nova is a black lion. Lions are not black they can never be black, they do not carry the melanistic gene. So it is impossible without GM
    5. Just because the lore simply does not state something, doesn't mean that anything goes. There are many things implied by the lore, or more directly stated implicitly. Such as the fact that the "Beast" she is fighting within the lore, is a kin to her mount.


    Anyway http://en.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comment...nas_new_mount/ raises all the same points I have made.
    Last edited by Crowfeather; 11-23-2013, 03:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hefaistus
    replied
    Originally posted by Legion Commander View Post
    Now i am scared :P


    Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
    But Hefaistus, I hope you understand that the bulk of us are mature but there will always be some posters who will just flame, troll or type insensitive remarks.
    I understand, and that's why I always dislike having to resort to such measures. I prefer keeping discussions open, but sometimes a discussion just draws too much negative behaviour to warrant for it to remain open. The gender debates are a prime example. They usually are fine for a few pages, and then it all goes down from there.
    Hopefully my momentary presence here is enough to keep the thread from going down the same route.

    Leave a comment:

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