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Reincarnate Skeleton King!

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  • Reincarnate Skeleton King!

    Needless to say, I am disappointed with the current changes with Skeleton King. Skeleton King has always been a very iconic character in DotA, and the developers did him great justice with a highly suitable model and voiceover. To change that would be to turn the unique hero Valve created into a generic one. It would be akin to changing Morphling to "Water Elemental."

    Furthermore, I do not believe there is any legitimate legal argument that wouldy imply Skeleton King's name and/or model is copyright infringement. Unlike Windrunner, whose name was derived from a character in the warcraft universe, "Skeleton King" can simply refer to a skeletal king: the difference here is that it's a very generic term. While there may also be a Skeleton King in the Diablo universe, this name refers to the monster, rather than the character. The character is "King Leoric," and skeleton king is used precisely as it is in DotA 2: to describe a skeletal king (Leoric became undead in Diablo). All this suggests that "Skeleton King" is not actually a name, but a description; in other words, it couldn't be copyrighted.

    Skeletal Kings are nothing new; before Diablo was even released in 1996, another game already featured a Skeletal King as an enemy. Ancient Domains Of Mystery (ADOM), a roguelike released two years prior in 1994, already featured Skeletal Kings. These enemies could also raise skeleton warriors to aid them (sound familiar?). The Tomb Kings from the Warhammer universe also have hordes of skeletal warriors in their ranks. This means that if anything, Blizzard may have borrowed from these sources in creating King Leoric.

    Changing his name to Wraith King, on the other hand, might actually create some legal risk. The Witch-King of Angmar from the LOTR universe leads the Nazgûl (Ringwraiths). Would he not, then, be the Wraith King?

    The point I'm trying to make here is that there is no reason to change Skeleton King's name or model. Legally, it's safer to leave him as is. Beyond that, what's to say Blizzard will stop with Skeleton King? Blizzard's also working on a MOBA of their own, so any damage they can do to the competition is going to benefit them. Unless the line is drawn, they're going to continue meddling with DotA 2. It's time for Valve and the developers to stand up for the game, its players, and for the character they created. Bring back Ostarion, King of bones!

  • #2
    Something tells me that seeing how Valve not only made a whole new set of visuals, VO, animations and, I don't know, CENTERED THE CHRISTMAS EVENT AROUND IT, they might know just a liiiiittle bit better what is legally possible. That said, though, I too think that WK kinda looks like the king of the ghost army in LotR. A very, very decent lot. The names, too. But then, there isn't a big MOBA centered around LotR coming out anytime soon, now is there?

    And yeah, even I must admit that Blizzard have impacted Dota 2's development more than we expected them too (several previous changes that people foolishly also blamed on Blizzard notwithstanding). HotS is more than likely the reason for Omniknight's color scheme change (he looked almost exactly like the paladins from WC3 - of whom Uther Lightbringer, a hero in HotS, was a part of), Windrunner's name change (I honestly am amazed that Valve really thought that it's a good idea to name their character that when it's one of the more prominent last names in Warcraft history) and WK's existance (as my quick search has shown, there is (might be? seen on screenshots) a characer in HotS probably called Skeleton King). None of that seems to have been in the plans - or a big problem, really - but HotS has mixed things up. And I am really pretty sure that the law line here is so thin it's better not to risk anything. Some ground has to be given.

    But I implore everyone not to tell others that Doom Bringer becoming Doom and Wisp becoming Io (THE WORST CHANGES IN DOTA 2 HISTORY) are to be blamed on Blizzard. Sometimes Valve too feel like mixing things up. So let us be just.

    And if we're to be just, then Blizzard crumbles to dust for all the sins they've commited and Valve make it possible to switch between WK and SK because personally I think WK is cool as... something really cool. But that is highly unlikely. These requests, especially when formed in at least somewhat constructive way - for once this is one of them - have some common sense and ground behind them, but some things are just decided there where we do not thread. It is rather pointless crying out like that.

    Lastly though, I'd disagree about WK being generic. Skeletons are way more generic than ghosts. Badass ghost kings need more recognition.
    Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

    THE DOTA 2 LORE MEGATHREAD IS TO BE UPDATED BY JULY 5TH

    Visit the Dota 2 Lore Megathread. Renovation ongoing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 1337_n00b View Post
      Something tells me that seeing how Valve not only made a whole new set of visuals, VO, animations and, I don't know, CENTERED THE CHRISTMAS EVENT AROUND IT, they might know just a liiiiittle bit better what is legally possible. That said, though, I too think that WK kinda looks like the king of the ghost army in LotR. A very, very decent lot. The names, too. But then, there isn't a big MOBA centered around LotR coming out anytime soon, now is there?

      And yeah, even I must admit that Blizzard have impacted Dota 2's development more than we expected them too (several previous changes that people foolishly also blamed on Blizzard notwithstanding). HotS is more than likely the reason for Omniknight's color scheme change (he looked almost exactly like the paladins from WC3 - of whom Uther Lightbringer, a hero in HotS, was a part of), Windrunner's name change (I honestly am amazed that Valve really thought that it's a good idea to name their character that when it's one of the more prominent last names in Warcraft history) and WK's existance (as my quick search has shown, there is (might be? seen on screenshots) a characer in HotS probably called Skeleton King). None of that seems to have been in the plans - or a big problem, really - but HotS has mixed things up. And I am really pretty sure that the law line here is so thin it's better not to risk anything. Some ground has to be given.

      But I implore everyone not to tell others that Doom Bringer becoming Doom and Wisp becoming Io (THE WORST CHANGES IN DOTA 2 HISTORY) are to be blamed on Blizzard. Sometimes Valve too feel like mixing things up. So let us be just.

      And if we're to be just, then Blizzard crumbles to dust for all the sins they've commited and Valve make it possible to switch between WK and SK because personally I think WK is cool as... something really cool. But that is highly unlikely. These requests, especially when formed in at least somewhat constructive way - for once this is one of them - have some common sense and ground behind them, but some things are just decided there where we do not thread. It is rather pointless crying out like that.

      Lastly though, I'd disagree about WK being generic. Skeletons are way more generic than ghosts. Badass ghost kings need more recognition.
      very much said.

      Comment


      • #4
        King Leoric, the Skeleton King himself, is in HotS, yes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Umbros View Post
          Needless to say, I am disappointed with the current changes with Skeleton King. Skeleton King has always been a very iconic character in DotA, and the developers did him great justice with a highly suitable model and voiceover. To change that would be to turn the unique hero Valve created into a generic one. It would be akin to changing Morphling to "Water Elemental."

          Furthermore, I do not believe there is any legitimate legal argument that wouldy imply Skeleton King's name and/or model is copyright infringement. Unlike Windrunner, whose name was derived from a character in the warcraft universe, "Skeleton King" can simply refer to a skeletal king: the difference here is that it's a very generic term. While there may also be a Skeleton King in the Diablo universe, this name refers to the monster, rather than the character. The character is "King Leoric," and skeleton king is used precisely as it is in DotA 2: to describe a skeletal king (Leoric became undead in Diablo). All this suggests that "Skeleton King" is not actually a name, but a description; in other words, it couldn't be copyrighted.

          Skeletal Kings are nothing new; before Diablo was even released in 1996, another game already featured a Skeletal King as an enemy. Ancient Domains Of Mystery (ADOM), a roguelike released two years prior in 1994, already featured Skeletal Kings. These enemies could also raise skeleton warriors to aid them (sound familiar?). The Tomb Kings from the Warhammer universe also have hordes of skeletal warriors in their ranks. This means that if anything, Blizzard may have borrowed from these sources in creating King Leoric.

          Changing his name to Wraith King, on the other hand, might actually create some legal risk. The Witch-King of Angmar from the LOTR universe leads the Nazgûl (Ringwraiths). Would he not, then, be the Wraith King?

          The point I'm trying to make here is that there is no reason to change Skeleton King's name or model. Legally, it's safer to leave him as is. Beyond that, what's to say Blizzard will stop with Skeleton King? Blizzard's also working on a MOBA of their own, so any damage they can do to the competition is going to benefit them. Unless the line is drawn, they're going to continue meddling with DotA 2. It's time for Valve and the developers to stand up for the game, its players, and for the character they created. Bring back Ostarion, King of bones!
          "Old model unique"
          "New model generic"
          This is becoming such a cliche and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming with this too. Please explain to me what about a living skeleton wearing armour or a crown is in any way unique. You even yourself admitted that Skeletal kings have been around in fantasy for over 17 years. As for his voicework, it's the same actor, same voice, just with some (light) added digital effects.

          Meanwhile, what makes this new one generic? I honestly can't say there is much that makes him unique, I will give you that (Except maybe that rather bizarre look on his face, I have never seen that on any other video game character to date), but he is definitely no more generic that the original one was. Plus (Though this is pure opinion) I rather like the new colour scheme in comparison to the old.

          In regards to lore, this is a bit of a double edged sword. His bio makes very little sense whatsoever now, at least in combination with his voice acting and model, though if Valve expanded his lore so that it added the events following Wraith Night, I mean, his obsession with bones has clearly ended, he seems to believe he has surpassed it: "Purer than flesh, stronger than bone, imperishable is the essence of the wraith."
          However, though the lore is a bit out of place, his abilities make a lot more sense. Why does that skull apply DoT? Why does he have a vampiric aura? Because he's a flipping spectral glowy ghosty with the mosty Wraith King!!!!

          So to conclude, Old=/= Unique and New =/= Generic.
          (Sorry if any of this comes off as snippy or aggressive, I get worked up at the keyboard. It's why I'm mostly a lurker here. XD)

          Originally posted by 1337_n00b View Post
          Something tells me that seeing how Valve not only made a whole new set of visuals, VO, animations and, I don't know, CENTERED THE CHRISTMAS EVENT AROUND IT, they might know just a liiiiittle bit better what is legally possible. That said, though, I too think that WK kinda looks like the king of the ghost army in LotR. A very, very decent lot. The names, too. But then, there isn't a big MOBA centered around LotR coming out anytime soon, now is there?
          There is actually already one, it's called "Guardians of Middle-earth", it's been out for a while now. Also, one good thing to come out of this as I just realised, there is now only one SK.
          Last edited by Mecha Djinn; 12-13-2013, 05:21 AM.
          sigpic
          "By my horns, you'll not live to see the dawn!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Bring Skele King back! I know hes not that huge in the meta, but hes a major iconic image for Dota 2 and Dota in general!
            His new fleshy form is not nearly as appealing, and it makes slightly -less- sense for a Lich like character to reincarnate than a lord of bone does.

            TRAVEL BY BONE!

            Comment


            • #7
              They didn't change Skeleton King because they were afraid of getting sued. They changed him because they simultaneously wanted to upgrade his textures, distinguish him from any of Blizzard's IPs (to make Dota 2 look "unique" from Heroes of the Storm), and probably also have a model that could be used in China (Pudge was also covered up to hide his gore). There IS a difference between wanting to be unique and wanting to not be sued; Valve is doing this of their own free will. They could change back to Skeleton King at any time.

              Personally I think this change was for the worse. Skeleton King was full of charm which Wraith King lacks.
              Last edited by gordongriest; 12-13-2013, 07:54 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SaltyPete View Post
                King Leoric, the Skeleton King himself, is in HotS, yes.
                Just rename him to "Bone King" then... he says it in one of his spawning lines anyways.

                Comment


                • #9
                  make him reincarnate to skeleton king after using reincarnation and then turn back to WK when the ult is up again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SaltyPete View Post
                    King Leoric, the Skeleton King himself, is in HotS, yes.
                    skeleton king are words/ is a name that cant be copyrighted. they are everywhere in every game. king leoric is the problem here. they could have just changed the name, no need to give him flesh when there are skeletons on every freaking game plus the model of dota sk is nothing similar to the diablo one and the sk of heroes of the storm is the diablo character wich again has nothing to do with our sk so i dont see the problem.

                    aside all the copyright issues i dislike his new face, he looks like a retard(no offence with retarded ppl)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Valve is usually full of crap anyway about copyrights. But i hope Skeleton king comes back after this fakeass frostivus is over.

                      I hate the new sound clips of this fake king and necrophos sounds like he has a megaphone with him it's unbearable to the ears!

                      Before you wonder about Skelly king maybe you guys should wonder about why Necrolyte got his name changed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I guess Skeleton King can't be used is because he was based of Diablo SK since DotA and Blizzard being butthurt they didn't took the chance to make DotA 2 when Icefrog approached them years ago. I am also wondering about the Necrolyte changed when I read somewhere that Neichus come up with the name after realizing what Necrophiliac means.

                        Lorewise, Valve make sure that his transition to being a Wraith is explained so I have no problems with that.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think Hawkeye (page 1) brings up a really good point. While I really don't believe there should be any issues with copyright, if Valve wants to be really cautious, they could change his name to "King of Bones" but still keep the old model and voice acting. One of his spawning lines is "Comes now the King of Bones!," so it would fit his pre-existing lore.

                          Atleast from what I've seen, all the players I've asked about the subject in-game prefer his old model and voice acting. So, I think a reasonable compromise would be to keep Skeleton King's old model and voice acting, and change his name to "King of Bones." That way, I think the players would be pleased, and Valve would have zero copyright worries (no issues from Blizzard or LotR).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I say they rename him to "Bone King"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              +1, just +1

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