Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

Hero Races

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Remember when I said I'd disregard altered Heroes? I'm bringing them back.

    As I said in my original post, and as Coal mentioned, Invoker has pointed ears. That basically throws what I've said about the lack of Elves out the window.

    But if there are Elves in the Dota universe, why didn't Drow keep her ears? Hopefully, I can explain that.

    (I'd like to note that this theory totally hinges on the idea that the ears of Necrolyte, Prophet and Lich remained largely unchanged through their respective transformations.)



    If you include the Altered Heroes with the unaltered ones, you can see some patterns. Let me go ahead and list the Altered Heroes that originated as mortal Humanoids:

    Pudge
    Storm Spirit
    Lion
    Pugna
    Ostarion
    N'aix
    Lich
    Necrolyte
    Death Prophet


    For most of these, you can sort of guess as to their races before their death. Pudge was definitely a Human, as was Storm Spirit. Lion may have been a Human or an Orc, but it's hard to tell. Judging by Pugna's horns and size, he was a Satyr. Ostarion is just a skeleton, so it's impossible to tell for him. N'aix may have been a Trowle.

    The last three are where things get interesting.




    They all have three things in common: They're undead, they're ancient, and they have pointed ears. One could just dismiss this as a product of their transformation, saying that their ear cartilage would have changed. But that doesn't really hold up. Here's my explanation:



    First off, Necrolyte. In life, he was a greedy cardinal. He would use fear of the afterlife to get money and favors from his subjects. While this was going on, a plague was ravaging the countryside, killing all that it touched. After the plague largely abated, Necrolyte was sentenced to death from the same plague that he exploited to scare his congregation. But he was immune, and the plague empowered him. When he escaped the quarantine, he went out to spread death and decay to the world. The length of his imprisonment wasn't specified, but judging by his appearance and the fact that people don't willingly open doors that lead to halls filled with a deadly disease, it's safe to assume that Necrolyte was in there for a very long time.

    As his skin and face shape were altered, one would assume that his pointed ears are a result of his transformation, as well. Except for the fact that the green skin and the destroyed nose can be explained by rot, while ears that have actually grown cannot. Therefore, it's safe to assume that he was an Elf before his transformation.


    Next, Death Prophet. Her story says that she's died over and over and over and over again for... Well, for a long time. We can assume that she's been doing it for centuries. And since her facial features seem intact, we can assume that she was an Elf in life.


    Lich may be the oldest of the three, as he was dropped into that not-so-bottomless pit for so long that his infamous acts were totally forgotten. Like Necrolyte, most of the flesh on his face has rotted off. Except for those damn pointed ears. Once again, we can assume that he was an Elf in life.


    All of this brings us back to Invoker. His lore says that he, too, has a magically lengthened life. He seems mostly unaltered, and his ears are pointed.


    From all that's been discussed, we can glean two main ideas:

    1) The Elf Heroes are all incredibly old.
    2) The Elf Heroes are all incredibly powerful, lore-wise.



    So, why aren't there any young Elf heroes? First, we have to assume that these Elves live normal-length lives- not like the OLOLO IMMORTAL Elves in Tolkien or Warcraft. Here are my theories:

    Theory #1:
    Necrolyte and the plague killed them all. One can assume that when he was released, his first victims were the descendants of his captors. Whatever Elves survived the first plague were killed by Necrolyte's new plague.

    Theory #2:
    Evolution. The millenia changed them into the races we see in the modern game.

    Theory #3:




    I may have to explain Theory #3 just a bit. We all know how much of a player Zeus is. Hell, the whole reason he's in this conflict is because his wife got mad at him for having so many affairs with mortals. With that many kids, it would be extremely plausible that he had a few illegitimate children. As you can see, Zeus's ears are very long and very pointed. That, along with crazy power, may have become a trait that was passed through the generations. It may also explain why people turned to the Nemesis Stones for mana: remnants of Zeus's mighty seed grew weaker and weaker, along with the pointed ears and the superpowers. Zeus treats all the Heroes as if they are his rambunctious, rebellious children. If this theory is true, then that statement just gained a lot of weight.


    But if Theory #2 is true, then Theory #3 would no longer be needed: Zeus may have taken the form of a mortal way back in time when long ears were the norm, and Elves populated the world of Dota.







    But those are just my ideas on the subject.

    Comment


    • #17
      Allow me to collaborate for a sec.
      But if there are Elves in the Dota universe, why didn't Drow keep her ears? Hopefully, I can explain that
      There are elves in Dota 2 universe. Boots of Elvenskin. But Traxex... She's a human, i think - only raised by the likely subterranian Drow.
      Pudge was definitely a Human
      His story implies that he was, likely, again, created. Somebody created The Butcher out of corpses of many, many creatures of different races.
      Lion may have been a Human or an Orc, but it's hard to tell
      I'd stick with Human. He is not tall enough to match Warlock(if we consider him an orc or a half-orc) and Axe, while the humans' height may vary.
      Judging by Pugna's horns and size, he was a Satyr
      It's, again, strongly implied that he didn't have those horns originally. It describes his childhood; in-game he's already a skeleton. But, when you think about it, Satyr actually makes sense.
      The Elf Theory
      Suddenly makes a huckton of sense. While they don't have to be literally called Elves, this idea actually sounds extremely fitting.
      The Zeus Theory
      Is, as for me, unlikely. That's simply by listening to his lines. He just keeps bragging about his state. I think he'd reference something like that. Of course, his backstory may be changed, the entire lore cna be changed, buuuut i doubt that Valve would re-record everything.

      And, looking at how we do have Gondar's portrait, it's safe to say that there's one more race out there. He doesn't fit into any of the ones that already exist.

      By the way, i wouldn't rely to Alchemist's Goblin's Greed. That skill name is very, very likely to change. Dota 2 doesn't have a lot of race references, and Valve did rename a couple of skills. I think it's safe to say that Goblin's Greed is changing the name quite soon. Razzil looks like the Gnome Trio a lot. A big damn lot.

      Witch Doctor isn't likely to be a Dezun troll - he looks nothing like those. He's deformed like ohmygosh. We have no idea of what he looked like in the beginning.

      The last thing i want to say, Sniper and Clockwerk both have long ears(judging by Clockwerk's helmet). Tinker's are likely covered by his headwear, and Alchemist... Well, my theory kind of cracks here - his ears are different.
      Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

      THE DOTA 2 LORE MEGATHREAD IS TO BE UPDATED BY JULY 5TH

      Visit the Dota 2 Lore Megathread. Renovation ongoing.

      Comment


      • #18
        Skywraths are not outlanders, at least i cant find anything about that in the lore. Shes just a Spirit thing cause of her backstory. Skywrath would be her original race.

        Imo too much of the OP is based on assumption...

        as for the elves, dispite the fact that we dont know if the trow are related to the elves in any way, id like to see them extinct. With only some Undead Heroes or extremeley old ones beeing of that Race.
        I am also very fond of the absens of Dwarves and Goblins (even if some person might disagree with me here)
        I realy hope Valve gives it its own spin, or for example keep elves closer to the myth (in other words small mischievous things that stir up trouble and steal human children)
        Last edited by Zordak; 12-21-2011, 05:02 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          First of all: Nice work, you're doing here, GIROG.

          I've got a few points where I'd like the lore to be somewhat like you said. The Warlock case is one of them. It would be kind of cool, if he was a half-orc -a bit like Beastmaster was 50:50 in Dota1 aswell.
          What really made me post this is another thing though, the Elven (or Elf-) theory. It would be more than awesome if the Elves would be long forgotten, because long gone peoples. Therefore the theory of e.g. Necrolyte would perfectly fit. Vengeance killed most of the Elves, other conflicts and wars took their part. Only a few might have lived through this, one of them Invoker (although I don't really see him having elvish ears). Actually it shouldn't be of any surprise that Invoker still lives... he's one of the mightiest wizards wandering DOTA2s world and he's got bigger brains and is smarter than everyone else.
          Apart from some Undead souls (like you mentioned with Krob and Lich) there might still be elvish creatures in the world. But they degenerated, mutated, were experimented on -I guess you see the reference in here - and so other races evolved, like the one Gondar belongs to.

          Actually I'm kind of sad that the Bounty Hunter and the Dark Seer aren't in one race, I'd love to see them be a race that evolved from corrupt and dark magic using elves or something.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by GIROG View Post
            Then, we have Alchemist--not the ogre, the little dude on top. Razzil. He was one of the easiest to classify. From his name and spells, we know that Razzil Darkbrew has stayed a Goblin.

            Character lore has already done the first real grouping. Tinker, Sniper and Clockwerk are all... Something? In the original Dota, Clockwerk and Tinker were both Goblins. But judging by their appearances when compared to Alchemist, we know that they've changed. This is confirmed by pulling in Sniper, who used to be a Dwarf. But their proportions don't mesh with common depictions of Dwarves. It's a bit of a guess, but I believe they're Gnomes. The description in Ring of Regen shows that Gnomes exist in this universe, and have some sort of culture. The description in the ring suggests Gnomes are superstitious, and the backstories for Sniper and Tinker show that their race fits this profile.
            When I read Tinker's lore, I am tempted to say the complete opposite. Tinker is not superstitious at all. Heck, I very much doubt he even believes in coincidence. He fiercely believes in rational methodologies, there is no room for superstition in there.
            I am also quite tempted to say that Alchemist is of the same race as Clockwerk, Sniper and Tinker. If you look closely at the models, you'll notice that only Sniper is the bulky one. Tinker and Clockwerk only appear bulky due to the contraptions and armor they are wearing, but they are actually quite thin as well. If anything, it's Sniper that is the odd one out, not Alchemist.

            Originally posted by GIROG View Post
            Theory #3:




            I may have to explain Theory #3 just a bit. We all know how much of a player Zeus is. Hell, the whole reason he's in this conflict is because his wife got mad at him for having so many affairs with mortals. With that many kids, it would be extremely plausible that he had a few illegitimate children. As you can see, Zeus's ears are very long and very pointed. That, along with crazy power, may have become a trait that was passed through the generations. It may also explain why people turned to the Nemesis Stones for mana: remnants of Zeus's mighty seed grew weaker and weaker, along with the pointed ears and the superpowers. Zeus treats all the Heroes as if they are his rambunctious, rebellious children. If this theory is true, then that statement just gained a lot of weight.
            "Zeus was yanked over into this conflict". That suggests he hadn't been in the Dota 2 world before and since it seems likely that Invoker, if he were an Elf, was around before the conflict started, then that pretty much throws your theory out of the window.
            To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
            Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



            Lore moderator.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
              When I read Tinker's lore, I am tempted to say the complete opposite. Tinker is not superstitious at all. Heck, I very much doubt he even believes in coincidence. He fiercely believes in rational methodologies, there is no room for superstition in there.
              I am also quite tempted to say that Alchemist is of the same race as Clockwerk, Sniper and Tinker. If you look closely at the models, you'll notice that only Sniper is the bulky one. Tinker and Clockwerk only appear bulky due to the contraptions and armor they are wearing, but they are actually quite thin as well. If anything, it's Sniper that is the odd one out, not Alchemist.



              "Zeus was yanked over into this conflict". That suggests he hadn't been in the Dota 2 world before and since it seems likely that Invoker, if he were an Elf, was around before the conflict started, then that pretty much throws your theory out of the window.


              If Zeus is the Greek God pulled into a different world, then my half-God theory totally collapses. I do see that it's the weakest of the theories I presented, but remember that everything in this thread is based on assumption.

              I also totally get your thoughts on Tinker not being superstitious. But, I think that a race so based on curiosity and magic would have a history of superstition. Once again, I'm assuming based on what we've got.

              But I will have to disagree with you on Tinker/Sniper/Clockwerk and Alchemist. Here are some pics of their models:

              Clockwerk
              Tinker
              Sniper
              Alchemist

              Here are the key features of Sniper/Tinker/Clockwerk:
              -Broad shoulders (The armor does widen them, but not drastically. Sniper's shoulders are actually less pronounced than Tinker's.)
              -Purple skin
              -Short, bowed legs
              -Long torso


              However, Alchemist doesn't really fit this for several reasons.

              To start, his proportions are very slight. He has a very thin chest, which doesn't at all fit with the three Gnomes.

              Second, as this screenshot shows, Alchemist's legs are nearly twice the length of his (very short) torso.

              Third, while he and Sniper share pointed ears, the ear-similarities stop there. Sniper's ears are small and lay flat against his head, while Alchemist's ears are wide and protrude from the sides.

              Also, Alchemist has three fingers per hand and two toes per foot.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by GIROG View Post
                I also totally get your thoughts on Tinker not being superstitious. But, I think that a race so based on curiosity and magic would have a history of superstition. Once again, I'm assuming based on what we've got.
                I do get that these are assumptions and theories. But that also allows for more discussion, wouldn't you say?
                Anyhow, back to the discussion at hand, Tinker's race is actually not based on magic at all. Outtakes from his lore:

                Boush the Tinker's diminutive race is known for its intelligence, its cunning, and its prickly relationship with magic As a matter of pride, they survive by their wits, and use only those powers of nature that may be unlocked through rational methodologies. [...] While scorning mages for the dangers they visit upon the world, Boush and his Tinker associates [...]
                And from his voicelines:

                You can keep your magic, I have laser beams!
                Anti-Mage, your efforts against magic do not go unappreciated, I assure you!
                Should have taken up science, Invoker, magic's long term prospects are dim!
                I don't think that magic is actually all that common among his race. Tinker, Clockwerk and Sniper also all don't have magical ability, although they are just three representatives of their race, so this would be, as Tinker would say it, scientifically unreliable data.

                Originally posted by GIROG View Post
                But I will have to disagree with you on Tinker/Sniper/Clockwerk and Alchemist. Here are some pics of their models:

                Clockwerk
                Tinker
                Sniper
                Alchemist

                Here are the key features of Sniper/Tinker/Clockwerk:
                -Broad shoulders (The armor does widen them, but not drastically. Sniper's shoulders are actually less pronounced than Tinker's.)
                -Purple skin
                -Short, bowed legs
                -Long torso
                I have brought up the modelviewer so I can check the models a bit better.
                Where Tinker's shoulders actually stop is quite hard to tell, because they are obstructed by both his normal armor and his shoulderpads, but they aren't actually that broad. But so far, your observations are quite correct.


                Originally posted by GIROG View Post
                However, Alchemist doesn't really fit this for several reasons.

                To start, his proportions are very slight. He has a very thin chest, which doesn't at all fit with the three Gnomes.

                Second, as this screenshot shows, Alchemist's legs are nearly twice the length of his (very short) torso.

                Third, while he and Sniper share pointed ears, the ear-similarities stop there. Sniper's ears are small and lay flat against his head, while Alchemist's ears are wide and protrude from the sides.

                Also, Alchemist has three fingers per hand and two toes per foot.
                I see. Might be explainable as Razzil being a dwarf even among the Gnomes, although I admit, I'm stretching it at this point. However, you do actually bring up an interesting point. Alchemist has three fingers per hand, while Clockwerk and Sniper have four per hand, but Tinker actually has five per hand.

                Hands.png
                To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
                Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



                Lore moderator.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I didn't notice the hand thing; I only looked at Tinker's. I wonder if that was a conscious choice, or if the art team just got lazy?

                  And those voice lines bring up a couple of things that I didn't see before. Their race doesn't just seem to dislike magic, they seem to openly oppose it. Maybe there was an event in the past that caused this hatred? I'm not sure how well Tinker's dislike of magic meshes with Sniper's CHOSEN ONE backstory.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    It's stated in Clockwerk's lore that he's from the same race as Tinker and Sniper, so...maybe their race just has a lot of variety in shapes? This makes it more acceptable to think that the Alchemist is a part of their race as well.

                    Also, I never thought Warlock was of the same race as Axe, but after examining his face, it seems you're completely right about it GIROG. The nose and the eyes are so distinctive. The variation in skin color must be a thing for their race.

                    Witch Doctor, I'm sure, is of the same race as Huskar and Dazzle. They have the same kind of 'voodoo' theme. Plus, the ears and pupils. The reason for why the Doctor seems different from them is probably just a culture thing. Like the different ethnicity in the real world. Rhasta is probably a part of their race as well, even if troll is spelled as trowle for him (also, the 'voodoo' theme is kept).

                    EDIT: Also, looking at Bounty Hunter and Bloodseeker's legs, it seems that the two of them come from the same race?

                    EDIT2: And concerning the pointed ears; they may just be something that comes up the more one uses magic?
                    Last edited by The_Codfish; 12-21-2011, 09:18 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GIROG View Post
                      And those voice lines bring up a couple of things that I didn't see before. Their race doesn't just seem to dislike magic, they seem to openly oppose it. Maybe there was an event in the past that caused this hatred? I'm not sure how well Tinker's dislike of magic meshes with Sniper's CHOSEN ONE backstory.
                      I don't think it's hatred as much as it's a sense of superiority. Sniper has similar voicelines towards bow users (e.g. "What's wrong, your string break?" and "Guns are the future, my friend!").
                      My personal theory is that Tinker's race is relatively young and are pretty much acting as teenagers; rebelling against the set standards of magic use among other races and instead focusing themselves on something new: Technology. This makes it quite curious, however, how they have gotten so advanced in such a short amount of time. They have lasers, rockets, firearms, even teleporters (Tinker's 'March of the Machines' appear to be teleported in from the research facility), so they appear to be highly advanced. This would suggest they are an older race, but has remained relatively isolated at first until their technology was advanced to such a point, that magic brought little value to them when they finally encountered it.

                      Sniper is following a prophecy, by the way, not really magic. Besides, Sniper actually uses relatively advanced technology in comparison to most heroes, so I don't think that Tinker is really going to be that picky.
                      To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
                      Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



                      Lore moderator.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'm thinking Sniper could be considered a 'hick' among his people.

                        Anyway, reading Sniper's lore, their race has been around for a long time. I think we can just settle this as being a case of nature versus nurture.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GIROG View Post
                          Another odd-one-out is Sven. We have no idea what he looks like. He seems blue, but another glance at his model shows that he's wearing... something. All we know about his race is that he's a half-breed, and his father was some sort of Paladin. As I mentioned earlier, this makes me think he's half Human. But until we learn more, we know next to nothing about Sven's heritage.
                          Yes, I think it's pretty obvious the blue thing is his armor. But the thing I want to add is this:

                          http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2407/svenf.png

                          Looks alot like human skin color at the neck part

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Interesting!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Nice post. I have been wondering what to classify Bloodseeker as, and it seems you arent sure either ;p.

                              I hope they add less humans to the game, I do miss the high-existence of Orcs in the game. Maybe if I am lucky they will turn PA into an Orc
                              Trot along

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                An Orc without honor, killing people out of the shadows? Pretty nonstandard and might be exactly VALVes style.

                                I'm actually hoping that Techies won't be of the same -not so cool, imo- race as Tinker and Co. I'd like them to bee weird little Goblins again, but that won't happen in a million years, I bet.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X