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[Discussion] Best Lore

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  • #16
    Of course... but the skill evidently is hereditary! Meaning it must be an evolutionary thing in some way, perhaps similar to how we on Earth evolved to breathe Oxygen. And there are some people who are... better at breathing?
    I don't think this is the best comparison, but you get the idea.
    Perhaps the world of Dota is so filled with magic that, like oxygen, they could either evolve to use it or die? But some, the mages, just grew better and better over the generations, thus developing academic magic even by Invoker's time - which was, of course, a very long time ago.
    In fact, if anything Invoker's thing saying everyone has the potential increases the chancwe that I've hit close to home... because if it's true, then in his time magic skill would have been harder to acquire and everyone would have been able to do it, while nowadays it'd be easier for families of spellcasters and even harder for others!
    (Though I still argue that ingame mechanics aren't necessarily indicative of lore, given that it costs Ursa mana to hit people harder and faster with his fists.)
    Ooh, I like this a lot.

    That said, I never have been a fan of explaining things like magic. It seems to be the opposite of what magic is supposed to be, thematically.
    Still...
    Last edited by Nemzal; 11-10-2014, 03:44 AM.

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    • #17
      If you can explain magic to a certain extent, you can be consistent with how you apply it to the setting. That's one of the differences between a GOOD fantasy setting and a BAD fantasy setting.

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      • #18
        lycan?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sir Mountebank View Post
          I find that Warlock's history raises several avenues of discussion, particularly about the nature of Black Magic in the DOTA2 setting compared to more established continuities.

          While on first glance, Warlock meets many of the criteria for being a Traditional Fantasy Villain, closer inspection reveals strong evidence that this is far from the truth.

          To begin, let us look at Warlock himself. Or rather, let us look at Demnok Lannik, Chief Curator and Head of Acquisitions for the Arcane Archives of the Ultimyr Academy. You see, Warlock is not his profession as much as it is a tool. A means to the end, and for Demnok Lannik, that end is books. Specifically, Magic Books. The guy loves them. Finding them, cataloging them, restoring them, archiving them, hunting down the possessors of overdue books and visiting bodily harm on them, the actual MAGIC of the books never interested him. For most of his life AND his employment as Top Librarian of a MAGIC SCHOOL, Demnok Lannik had no need of magic for his work. It wasn't until he started getting tired of risking his life Indiana Jones-style in the search for MORE magic books that he took an interest in the curriculum of his place of employment. He then went from zero to postgraduate in less time than it takes most other students to complete a single course. And at no point did trafficking with Dark And Evil Powers corrupt him. He wanted to learn Demonic Magic so he could more easily collect spell books, and that's exactly what he does with it (detours into the War of the Ancients aside). At no point did the Dark Side cause him to lose sight of his original goals and turn him into a generic evil sorcerer in a tower. He's the most powerful graduate of the Academy, but all he cares about is his library. He took something that has almost exclusively been seen in fiction as a path to power and domination over others and reduced it to a mere HIKING TOOL.

          Next, we shall look at the Ultimyr Academy. To begin with, IT'S A FREAKING ACADEMY. Think about it. It's an institute dedicated to the organized education of students in the art of SUMMONING DEMONS AND BINDING THEM TO YOUR WILL, and it has been recognized as such by one, if not more, sovereign states. Again, think about it. Legitimate governments recognize Ultimyr Academy as both existing and possessing the qualifications to be labeled an institute of higher education. In a more traditional fantasy setting, such governments would publicly deny the existence of such a group, while privately be seeking it's location in order to destroy it for being a dangerous organization. It's like if ISIS opened up a children's summer camp, and nobody had a problem with it. And again, it's an academy. A school. With students, and teachers, and learning, and graduations, and HELLO, ANYONE ELSE NOTICING THE PROBLEM WITH THIS PICTURE?! WHEN YOU'RE EVIL, YOU DON'T GIVE TWO $#&%! ABOUT ANYONE BESIDES YOURSELF. YOU ESPECIALLY DON'T TEACH OTHER EVIL PEOPLE EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT BEING EVIL, BECAUSE THEN THEY'RE JUST AS POWERFUL AS YOU AND A POTENTIAL THREAT. Traditional evil wizards only take apprentices on as useful pawns, and get rid of them before they become too strong. THEY DON'T GIVE THEM A DEGREE AND CALL THEM EVERY NIGHT AT 9:00 PM TO ASK FOR A DONATION. At no point in Warlock's back-story is the betrayal and assassination of teachers or other students ever mentioned. Hell, this place actually comes across as SAFER than Hogwarts, a CHILDREN'S SCHOOL THAT COULDN'T GO TWO YEARS WITHOUT A STUDENT DYING A HORRIBLE DEATH. And apart from the utter darkness and the rustling of pages of books not touched by mortal hands in recorded history, the Academy Library is no different from any other school library in existence.

          Finally, we look at the Magic itself. For starters, most fantasy settings deny 'Evil' magic the power to heal, or at the very least the power to EASILY heal. Traditionally, 'Good' guys can heal for no other cost besides the amount of magic used, while 'Evil' guys have to 'steal' the health from someone else. Here, Warlocks can heal themselves and their allies for no other cost besides mana, JUST LIKE THE GOOD GUYS. Another traditional bit of evil magic is the Warlock's fear of death. Dying is something they try to avoid at any cost, because dying robs them of their magic and grants ownership of their eternal souls to the infernal being or beings they struck a deal with in exchange for black magic. Contrast that with DOTA2's Warlock, who when killed states that 'his' fiends will not only AVENGE HIM, but BRING HIM BACK TO LIFE. His 'Deal with the Devil' has REDUCED death to a minor inconvenience, instead of the horrible fate it NORMALLY is for his kind of magic users. Next, consider the relationship between Warlock and the Demon bound within his Dreadwood staff. Said demon is (supposedly) the source of his power, and that's not unusual in a fantasy setting. It also refers to him as 'master', which is again not unusual. What IS unusual is the frankly STAGGERING amount of loyalty the enslaved denizen of the infernal realms shows him. If the demon has been summoned at the moment of Warlock's death, it expresses none of the traditional GLEE of being freed from bondage to a mere mortal. Instead, the Demon is upset and desirous of REVENGE against the guilty party or parties, and freely returns to it's prison inside Warlock's staff when the summoning spell runs out. Binding a demon to call you master, I'll grant you, but binding it to fake UNDYING LOYALTY AND OBEDIENCE? Unless Demnok Lannik has one hell of an inferiority complex, this is an example of an enslaved demon feeling GENUINE AFFECTION for it's enslaver. Speaking of the Demonic Golem (why IS it a golem, anyway?), the spell for summoning it requires a second look as well. Despite being called "Chaotic Offering", the only cost of casting it is a sizable chunk of mana. Traditionally, evil magic users have had to sacrifice unwilling victims to their demonic benefactors in order to manifest them in the mortal realm, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

          In summation, Warlock is less Raistlin Majere and more Dr. Hix.
          There are alot of assumptions and fanfiction here.

          Originally posted by Phoenix.
          2013: 10 heroes, 3 reworks, 4 events, hats, 1 arcana and TI
          2014: 4 heroes, 2 events, 2 arcanas, hats, 1 rework and TI.
          Lazyness. Not to mention the lack of bugfixes, and the amount of new ones with each new content added


          Credits to Phoenix.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Legion Commander View Post
            There are alot of assumptions and fanfiction here.
            Exqueeze me, what are you talking about? This is all confirmable stuff you can find on the wiki.

            His bio states he was the head of a department at a magic school despite having never learned magic. It states that he completed the task in record time, and once he had his diploma he went back to searching for magic books, just like he had planned to. He has several lines of in-game dialogue stating his pact with infernal forces protects him from death, and his golem has just as many lines expressing it's undying loyalty to him. His ultimate ability require only mana to cast, despite having a name implying a far greater cost.

            The only 'assumption' I've made is taking note of the lack of fluff indicating that Ultimyr Academy is in anyway shape or form hidden from the outside world. There is no line anywhere that implies it's existence is kept a secret from the public, and indeed in one of Rubick's victory lines he considers visiting it.

            I fail to see how applying simple logic to information provided and connecting the dots counts as 'fan fiction'.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sir Mountebank View Post
              Exqueeze me, what are you talking about? This is all confirmable stuff you can find on the wiki.

              His bio states he was the head of a department at a magic school despite having never learned magic. It states that he completed the task in record time, and once he had his diploma he went back to searching for magic books, just like he had planned to. He has several lines of in-game dialogue stating his pact with infernal forces protects him from death, and his golem has just as many lines expressing it's undying loyalty to him. His ultimate ability require only mana to cast, despite having a name implying a far greater cost.

              The only 'assumption' I've made is taking note of the lack of fluff indicating that Ultimyr Academy is in anyway shape or form hidden from the outside world. There is no line anywhere that implies it's existence is kept a secret from the public, and indeed in one of Rubick's victory lines he considers visiting it.

              I fail to see how applying simple logic to information provided and connecting the dots counts as 'fan fiction'.
              About the demon thing. Another possibility is that the demons are simple-minded creatures that Warlock trained like a guard dog. As for the mana thing, it's gameplay, and the name of the spell is hardly a good measure of what it does. Lion doesn't summon a giant finger to kill his opponent.

              Warlock already bound the demon to his staff as well, so it's understandable that the cost of the summon would be much less than say, summoning Shadow Demon.

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              • #22
                His bio states he was the head of a department at a magic school despite having never learned magic.
                That means absolutely nothing. He ran the museum and library. All he would need for that is solid business sense, the ability to haggle well, and a good eye for genuine artifacts. He doesn't have to have any practical knowledge of how they were made.

                You don't see blacksmiths or dinosaurs running your nearest natural history museum, do you?
                Last edited by Monsterlord; 12-09-2014, 01:16 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Monsterlord View Post
                  That means absolutely nothing. He ran the museum and library. All he would need for that is solid business sense, the ability to haggle well, and a good eye for genuine artifacts. He doesn't have to have any practical knowledge of how they were made.

                  You don't see blacksmiths or dinosaurs running your nearest natural history museum, do you?
                  Have you ever read his bio? The majority of acquisitions he made he did by raiding ancient ruins.. He didn't buy them, he found them inside crumbling structures chock full of magical death traps. It flat out states that he only learned how to summon and bind infernal powers because he was sick of escaping those places by the skin of his teeth.

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