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Dota 2 Cosmology - WIP

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  • #16
    I see the influence of the Ancients working something like the cosmic radiation in H.P. Lovecraft's The Colour Out of Space...except with two warring influences that have exerted their effect over countless generations.

    http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600031h.html#03

    As for why the heroes fight for one side over the other...and why they have any sort of alignment with one Ancient over another...that story has yet to be worked out.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lamprey View Post
      I see the influence of the Ancients working something like the cosmic radiation in H.P. Lovecraft's The Colour Out of Space...except with two warring influences that have exerted their effect over countless generations.

      http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600031h.html#03

      As for why the heroes fight for one side over the other...and why they have any sort of alignment with one Ancient over another...that story has yet to be worked out.
      I like that intro, it leaves room open for a lot of possibilities. As far as why one hero might fight for one ancient or the other and swap back and forth, I think that's not something that can be justified without stretching it to a point that would be a bit ridiculous. For lore's sake, we would probably have to pretend that they are on one side and one side only. It was never really a concern with DotA itself, each hero just had a story based on its alignment, for the most part.

      It should be relatively easy to make one hero decide to fight for one side or the other. From rivalries to tragic histories and traumatic events that set one against another, to pure chivalry or the simple thrill of the chaos surrounding them. Any number of things could draw a hero to one side or another. Even pure greed.

      For example, this can be tied in to many of the current stories developed for the heroes. I'm thinking it ties in perfectly with say Veno's story, where he basically 'grew' in a swamp for 17 years if I recall correctly from being bit by a local monster. In this case, you can link it in such a way that, since his disposition is definitely more a chaotic one, the swamp is within territory of a Dire shard. This influence as he evolved into what Veno is now made him single-mindedly attached to the Dire cause without really understanding why he is.

      As someone said earlier, some heroes can be resistant to the influence of the shards, joining one side or the other based on their own free will and decisions only (and some maybe being subtly manipulated without realizing). But some others can, as described above with Veno, just be malignantly or belignly aligned with that side.

      Another quick one can be Rilay, CM's story, where she's sent to study under that mage in the northern ice. Make a story out of that mage as well, maybe he went into solitude to study ice magic, and at the same time study the Dire and Radiant, or what's known of them, from a third party perspective. In the end, after years of contemplation, he might have decided that the Radiant were who his support should go to, for whatever reason, maybe he feels like them re-gaining their power means a better outcome for the world thant he Dire winning. He would have passed that information and belief on to Rilay, and then left to disappear and help the Radiant in a more active way, leaving CM to her own devices.

      Lots of potential! It would be possibly to even have neutral characters who choose neither side or both at the same time.
      Why should I fear Death? If Death is,
      I am not, if I am, Death is not. So why
      should I fear that which can only exist if
      I do not?

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      • #18
        To add on Elmy, I think that some heroes can be explained as to being 'convinced' by the ancients. While both ancients would be manipulating heroes, they would both go in opposite directions (with the cliche of the Dire promising generally more evil rewards then the Radiant). For example, the Dire ancient could have promised unlimited power to Doom Bringer and Axe, and promised Broodmother to wipe out all trespassers for her, while the Radiant promises more benign things; for example, it could've promised Tinker to give him the knowledge to correct the Violet Plateau Incident while it promised Zeus to return his immortality.
        Naturally, it doesn't explain the somewhat more vague heroes such as Storm Spirit, Earthshaker and Batrider, whom appear to have no real desires that the ancients could manipulate, but it does create a start.
        More examples could be, on the Radiant side:
        • Alchemist - the secret to transmuting gold
        • Huskar - his place among the gods
        • Tiny - to finally discover his origins
        • Riki - the knowledge about who killed his family
        • Sniper - to return to his clan
        • Vengeful Spirit - revenge

        For the Dire side:
        • Bloodseeker - all the blood he wishes
        • Weaver - to finally undo the weaves of this world
        • Dark Seer - to finally be recognized as the tactician that he is
        • Warlock - the materials/knowledge he needs to write his ow Black Grimoire

        In the end though, neither ancient intends on keeping their promise, but that is what manipulation is all about, right?

        Also, just like Elmy said, don't bother coming up with excuses as to why heroes are able to switch sides in-game; that's a game mechanic. I mean, have you guys even ever tried explaining why there were multiple of the same class in Team Fortress 2? Same thing here, it's a game mechanic and therefor should not have to wear lore down or even stretch it to the point of snapping.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
          have you guys even ever tried explaining why there were multiple of the same class in Team Fortress 2?
          would you get mad if they did? maybe they could come up with a good reason that fits. In either/both cases.

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          • #20
            I like that idea that perhaps their orientation is simply related to their culture having developed in proximity to one of the (not quite Ancient sized) shards.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by func_door View Post
              would you get mad if they did? maybe they could come up with a good reason that fits. In either/both cases.
              I wouldn't, but it is a mere example out of hunderds that I could come up with. Such as regenerating health in 'realistic shooters', the painpills and infinite ammo for pistols in the Left 4 Dead series and the ability to carry truckloads of stuff on one character in most mmo's. Why would you need such things explained? My point is that game mechanics should not be explained in the lore if it will end up being detrimental for the lore.
              To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
              Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



              Lore moderator.

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              • #22
                Radiant vs. Dire has never been purely good vs. evil to me. For instance I have always imagined Sand King to be a good guy despite his "monstrous" appearance to humans, maybe the king of his kind, protecting his people. But at the same time he obviously belongs to the Dire, maybe he is fighting for the greater good of something related to him. And despite Troll Warlord being on the radiant side he seems to fight for Radiant/Sentinel only to proof to everybody how good of a figher he is while Huskar, the Sacred Warrior, was indeed send to fight for the Radiant by his tribe.

                Unless it's penguins or zebras, life isn't only black or white. Feels more like a gargantuan struggle for power and that many heroes have their own, highly individual reasons to join one side or the other while some heroes like for instance Omniknight or Doombringer/Lich are equally fanatic as the creeps from the comic. Sounds like politics.

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                • #23
                  Okay the only thing I disliked about this lore is that it says "A few rare fragments fell to earth"... I assume that it means earth as in ground, and not the planet Earth, but a name for the planet that this is happening on would be nice ... Or maybe I just missed it somewhere... Anyways:

                  The falling of the fragments opens up a lot of doors, but might require you to rewrite some of the old lore. Here is my suggestion for one:

                  Earthshaker:
                  Okay I like his lore a bit, but why he gained consciousness and how he came in to being is missing. Also, while im talking about him, I'd imagine that something that rose from the ground would have a stone skin, not fur =/... Back on topic: He gained consciousness when the Mad Moon started leaking. The energies affected the earth and gave it a mind of it's own. When the moon shattered, a radiant ore crashed into the site, and the enormous amount of energy it released allowed the earth to take on a form of its own. With the energy, however, some of the Radiant-way-of-thinking went with and is what's 'enslaving' Earthshaker to the Ancient.

                  It's not perfect, I suck at stories, you will make it all pretty with big words and stuff ofcourse, but the general idea is that you mix it in with some of the old lore that needs some explanation.

                  keep it up, I like what I'm reading ... there's something I wanted to say but I forgot it between all the ranting =/

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                  • #24
                    EDIT: ugh stupid double post

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                    • #25
                      Yes, it means "the earth" as in the ground, or the world...not "The Earth" as in third planet from our particular star. You haven't missed the name of the world yet.

                      Another element to play with is the idea of what sets Heroes apart. A Hero is not only an intense and striking character from a particular culture, but they are so intense that they resist being warped entirely by the Ancients...so even though they operate under the Ancient's influence, they don't convert to creeps, they retain their personality and personal motivations. One thing about the earlier idea that the world is simply peppered with fragments of the weird ore is that these would be fairly small background influences on a culture, sort of like magical radon. Not enough to completely take over a society, but enough to create affinities in those who grow up in the influence. And much as we embrace or reject our own cultures, some heroes might simply reject the influences they were exposed to early on...and be drawn to the opposite. Trying to get away from good/evil conflict and show a universe where these things operate more as physical properties...so that even though this cosmology is full of gods and demons and sentient forces, it remains fundamentally impersonal...and yet these impersonal forces are themselves a kind of intelligence.

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                      • #26
                        Drive and motivation.
                        At least I would say the sheer desire to own Demon Edge kept the fat one from the comic being completely converted into a creep.
                        So will, either super natural or just extra-ordinary will that keeps them immune from the influence? I would see beings such as Puck or Leshrac, due to their supernatural nature, having somekind of defense for the influence.

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                        • #27
                          That was meant to show the separate influences of Dire and Radiant at war and at work on Sithil and Quirt. Once they were fused into Demon Edge, neither one had primacy, and the sword's innate power came into play. The sword was keeping him around long enough to get itself back to the shop, and ultimately just messing with him...Quirt being a nonhero and all.

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                          • #28
                            Although heroes are usually aligned with one faction or the other, each team has access to all heroes, regardless of their alignment. That's weird from a lore standpoint. So is denying. How will this be explained?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Maybe as suggested above: "And much as we embrace or reject our own cultures, some heroes might simply reject the influences they were exposed to early on...and be drawn to the opposite." Not sure. Denying is not something that would seem to have a compelling reason to have a fiction. I don't think every bit of gameplay needs to figure in the lore...unless it turns out to suggest something worth exploring, which is always possible.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Allegiance by nurture rather then manipulation. Interesting prospect, albeit it might not actually work quite a few heroes. Heroes such as Razor, Night Stalker and Faceless Void are from other realms - possibly outside of the reach of the ancients influence - so those will need a different explanation, but I can see it work for heroes such as Drow Ranger and Juggernaut.

                                If I might make a suggestion, by the way, Tinker could have gotten exposed - and gradually resistant to creep conversion - during his research rather then when he was growing up. If he and his research team managed to get their hands on a Radiant shard, I would not be surprised if they would have researched it extensively, especially if it is a rare material with little known properties. Research generally happens in a controlled environment - and Tinker mentions he is wearing a hazardsuit - so the radiation was low enough to keep him and the other Tinkers from being converted into creeps, but still high enough for the Radiant ancient to gain influence on Tinker.

                                ...I probably spend too much time thinking about things like this...

                                I also still say that game mechanics such as denying and allegiance switching should not need an explanation if it really adds nothing to the lore.
                                To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
                                Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



                                Lore moderator.

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