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Dota 2 Cosmology - WIP

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  • #31
    Could have denying be a part of the lore, in the way that the enemy ancient might gain power from the death of the opposite ancient's creep unless someone on the side of the ancient kills it.

    If that make sense. The creep seem pretty mindless anyhow, maybe it's just something the heroes take for granted, barely looking at them as people but more like tools or something.

    EDIT: Some things might just be better off without any lore though, and just accept as a gameplay mechanic, but since denying is kind of a big thing, it might work with lore as well.

    EDIT2: I kind of wish though that the reason for why the heroes are there is a bit bigger then them seemingly randomly jumping in to fight such an odd war.
    Last edited by Goldenkrow; 11-23-2011, 08:35 PM.

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    • #32
      How about a bit more about the shrines? I feel it is implied that when you are attacking the Ancients, you are actually attacking the shine that houses them. That the pieces by them self have little power or effect (Such that it takes years to gradually effect those around it), but in the shine they are properly channeled and are able to utilize their energy directly.

      Also, maybe Tie Roshan's ability to revive to being effected by both the Dire and Radiant Ancient (And being a few yards closer to the Dire, having its appearance reflect that side more from decades or centuries of feeding on that energy). Possibly even use that as an explination of why the Neutrals Respawn (Maybe make use of their markers as some part of the Ancients too)

      I would also love to see some explanation of why on the normal map, the Dire and Radiant are so close to one anther. Is there any significance about that spot, that patch of land, that they draws so many heroes to defend it? Is it THE boundary between both factions, does the key to truly freeing ether Ancient lie there, why that spot? Is it some Island that both sides are trying to conquer?

      How about the runes, are they part of the power from the Ancients, or perhaps part of the power the Ancients are fighting for? Or maybe the result of the two energies being so close and clashing.
      Last edited by Drkirby; 11-23-2011, 08:44 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Hefaistus View Post
        If I might make a suggestion, by the way, Tinker could have gotten exposed - and gradually resistant to creep conversion - during his research rather then when he was growing up. If he and his research team managed to get their hands on a Radiant shard, I would not be surprised if they would have researched it extensively, especially if it is a rare material with little known properties. Research generally happens in a controlled environment - and Tinker mentions he is wearing a hazardsuit - so the radiation was low enough to keep him and the other Tinkers from being converted into creeps, but still high enough for the Radiant ancient to gain influence on Tinker.
        it's because tinker got gordon to push the shard into the test chamber for him

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Drkirby View Post
          Also, maybe Tie Roshan's ability to revive to being effected by both the Dire and Radiant Ancient.
          Roshan's ability to revive has already been explained in the comic. He stole the Aegis of the Immortal and killed its keeper. As a result, the gods cursed him to be killed over and over again and to have his treasure stolen from him with every death.

          Originally posted by func_door View Post
          it's because tinker got gordon to push the shard into the test chamber for him
          Gman exists in Dota 2 world and kidnapped this world's version of Gordon Freeman as well, thus explaining why Tinker is deemed the sole survivor of the Violet Plateau Incident. Totally calling it.
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          Lore moderator.

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          • #35
            Very good. I like it. This part:
            The Ancients, both Radiant and Dire, provided many benefits: kinetic energy, mana, protection, even resurrection.
            is quite interesting. I figured out that it was something along these lines but now when I think about it:
            That could be a game-changing factor. At least for the "normal mode" (not -ap).
            If heroes are respawned as long as the Ancient stands, wouldn't that mean that the battle isn't over when some/all heroes of the losing team would be still alive. Makes sense in my opinion.
            It's useless in most cases but it would be pretty interesting in close games. Dire's ancient is under attack and the Dire is attacking the Radiant ancient at the same time. Both ancients have fallen, BUT it doesn't mean that the game is over yet.
            From now on we would be playing "sudden death". There wouldn't be a respawn, just your last life and if you die,you're gone forever. So, even if both teams would lose their ancient, they would fight one last time (either in a big clash or sneaky ganking to eliminate one at a time).
            Just an idea you could implement in the normal mode (normal mode is closer to the lore, radiant can pick radiant heroes only, dire can pick dire heroes only...why not doing the same with the other aspects of the game).

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            • #36
              You would also have to make your mana and movement speeds start dropping, since it does says both their kinetic energy and mana are provided by the Ancients.

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              • #37
                It seems like some people who have posted don't understand the difference between lore and gameplay. Lore and gameplay can and generally do interact and affect each other, but just because the lore says something, that doesn't mean the gameplay should reflect it. And the lore does not have to account for every little specific aspect of the gameplay, either. Any game that tries to do that would either suck or have complicated, nonsensical, uninteresting lore. So far, the lore has been excellent and fits the game nicely.

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                • #38
                  That's exactly the story I've been anticipating! Look forward to seeing more. Speaking of background, I think it'll be great to give detailed information of the reasons why each hero join Radiant/Dire, meanwhile, give some backgrounds of their tribes, races whatsoever, then we have the structure of a whole world, following which we can fulfill it with introductions or simple stories on customs or something like that.

                  There is a popular novel series in China called Novoland, it was started by 7 writers, they created a fantasy world out of their imagination, then published the basic backgrounds and settings on their forum, inviting talented writers to fulfill it. Then came countless writers and fans who would like to be a part of it, different writers of different priorities chose different aspects to fulfill, some wrote geography stuff, some wrote customs, some wrote wars, some wrote heroes. They posted their work on the forum, and once admitted, their stories would become one of the "official background" of the novel series, and the writers themselves were invited to the group to cooperate with the 7 original guys, as time went by that group became larger, and stories became more detailed and vivified. Now Novoland is the most successful fantasy novel series in China.

                  My point is, we do not have to focus on working out stories that related to the game only, we can just write things that happened in the world of dota, like some loser proved himself then became a well known hero(I know this example sucks). By writing things like this, we are able to make the dota world a world of legend, instead of a dull world where two forces fight endlessly.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by HippoVic View Post
                    That's exactly the story I've been anticipating! Look forward to seeing more. Speaking of background, I think it'll be great to give detailed information of the reasons why each hero join Radiant/Dire, meanwhile, give some backgrounds of their tribes, races whatsoever, then we have the structure of a whole world, following which we can fulfill it with introductions or simple stories on customs or something like that.

                    There is a popular novel series in China called Novoland, it was started by 7 writers, they created a fantasy world out of their imagination, then published the basic backgrounds and settings on their forum, inviting talented writers to fulfill it. Then came countless writers and fans who would like to be a part of it, different writers of different priorities chose different aspects to fulfill, some wrote geography stuff, some wrote customs, some wrote wars, some wrote heroes. They posted their work on the forum, and once admitted, their stories would become one of the "official background" of the novel series, and the writers themselves were invited to the group to cooperate with the 7 original guys, as time went by that group became larger, and stories became more detailed and vivified. Now Novoland is the most successful fantasy novel series in China.

                    My point is, we do not have to focus on working out stories that related to the game only, we can just write things that happened in the world of dota, like some loser proved himself then became a well known hero(I know this example sucks). By writing things like this, we are able to make the dota world a world of legend, instead of a dull world where two forces fight endlessly.

                    If we successfully accomplished creating a world like this, more fan arts or related products will be manufactured with the authorization of Valve, just think about Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, those are the world we are gonna create.

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                    • #40
                      the idea of a hero being able to retain their physical form reminds me of DBZ in some ways
                      I remember there was an episode during one of the times Goku dies, and the souls are all lined up waiting to be processed, and Goku's there in his physical form

                      there's this idea of heroes being these "intense" characters who have the ability to resist the pull of the ancients but this implies a certain level of intelligence. Sometimes, this can be contradictory to the heroes whose very nature is entirely primal; like Na'ix. I think another aspect or idea to explore would be the Ancients as an empowering agent; a kind of "voice" in the heads of these people that grants them power in exchange for allegiance; but in turn, transforms them; kind of like the Daedric Princes in TES. I think that both Ancients should at some level be labelled as "malevolent"; both sides are perpetuating a war and this idea of good vs evil is just an illusion for forces that cannot truly be defined either way

                      The key thing is; I feel like the Ancients should be depicted less as forces and more as personas
                      Last edited by HTB; 11-25-2011, 03:01 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Neal Stephenson, Greg Bear &c have been doing something similar with their crowd-sourced Mongoliad.

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                        • #42
                          People are perhaps rightfully confused about how all these different cultures can exist without being neatly tied together; there is a natural impulse to organize and codify everything, especially in the context of games, where it so often comes down to numbers and stats. The universe of Dota 2 is in a crazy growth mode at the moment; the time will come when the landscapers move in and cut everything back and start trimming and pruning. Meanwhile, if you think of it as a typical two dimensional map of fantastic kingdoms, also add in a Z-axis involving the influence of other maps and other planes of existence. It's more like the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah, with different spheres of existence interpenetrating. The Dire and Radiant stones emit an influence in all these realms, which is why they are of concern to beings like Spectre...although it seems like some beings from outside the Dota universe might be pulled into the struggle involuntarily, simply due to the power of the stones.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lamprey View Post
                            although it seems like some beings from outside the Dota universe might be pulled into the struggle involuntarily, simply due to the power of the stones.
                            So we're classifying the dota universe as the one with the physical stones in them? How will this work in terms of rivalries, etc with heroes that are classified as coming from different universes? They hardly have the opportunity to develop relationships with other heroes if they originate from different universes and have only come for the battle. This also makes it kind of confusing in terms of locations and such; which ones are in the "dota world" and which ones are outside it?

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                            • #44
                              i think he is refering to Zeus mostly

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by HTB View Post
                                So we're classifying the dota universe as the one with the physical stones in them? How will this work in terms of rivalries, etc with heroes that are classified as coming from different universes? They hardly have the opportunity to develop relationships with other heroes if they originate from different universes and have only come for the battle. This also makes it kind of confusing in terms of locations and such; which ones are in the "dota world" and which ones are outside it?
                                I think that the "Dota map" is simply a 2 dimensional plane in this "universe" that contains all the lore behind the game. (Although, it's really a 3d section of a 4d universe, but it's much simpler to think of it as a 2d map that somehow has a Z axis, as Lamprey said.) Certain planes, or regions in the universe intersect with each other in different ways, similar to how in a 2d universe, all the neighboring regions border each other. But due to the fact that all these varying regions, races, and cultures have to interact with each other on a more complicated basis than just being neighboring regions, these "sections" are actually 3d parts of a greater 4d universe. For example, if Zeus is an all-powerful god in one region, but obviously isn't in the "Dota map" region, then his home world must intersect with the Dota region differently than it does with the region where he is considered a god. But the one thing that penetrates all these regions equally is the influence of the Dire and Radiant. So all these different heroes from varying and unconnected worlds are all brought together by the influence of the Dire and the Radiant. Even 2 heroes who live in worlds that don't have any connection whatsoever can meet in the world of the "Dota map" where they fight. It's an interesting metaphysical solution to having such a complex set of worlds, and I personally like it.

                                If I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, Lamprey, please let me know.

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