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Dota 2 Cosmology - WIP

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  • #76
    "Mad Moon" ? really ? I can see very few native English speakers who would find this to be an appealing combination of words (in literary sense).
    Overall, well, I guess it'll do. It would be pretty hard to write something upredictable as lore for dota 2, it's all like this: 2 opposites somehow forced together, blah blah blah good vs. evil, which is a flawed concept anyway since life's not a dichotomy of good and evil and neither one is intrinsic.

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    • #77
      ^ Did the lore mention which one is bad, which one is good? No.
      "HUMAN ELEMENT"

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      • #78
        Originally posted by ShadowThanatos View Post
        ^ Did the lore mention which one is bad, which one is good? No.
        Maybe since he thinks that anything shines, bright, and look nature-ish are "good". While those look craggy, desolate, dark, are "bad"?
        Let's think about Sheogorath realm of madness from the ES series shall we? his realm are split into two: Mania and Dementia. both are represent the side of madness. While Mania look more friendly and 'sane' than those Dementia, in reality Mania is no better than Dementia.
        In short, being look brighty and have "good" people fight for you doesn't mean that it have noble intention in the end
        Last edited by shengar; 01-25-2012, 11:41 PM.

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        • #79
          The arbitrary nature of the conflict and emphasis on the neutrality of the factions is somewhat off-putting. While it may seem gritty or edgey to try and color the morality of DotA as grey, a reality of storytelling is that the concept of Good vs. Evil is innately human and appealing and in Dota we have a perfect microcosm of that conflict. There are two polar factions on a symmetrical map opposing each other and engaging in a titanic conflict, by emphasizing their similarities their stark contrasts are downplayed when they should be embraced and the effect is a homogenization of the factions and characters.

          The idea of "endless war" set up by these godly ancients may also be a misstep. By setting up the heroes more as pawns in a game, they all are made less powerful and unique. The heroes' motivation as we know it is singular and universally the same: fighting for the supremacy their ideology (which is already cheapened by it's likening to the opposing ideology). A good story is always about not only the characters but the how and why; wise people once told me it's about what the protagonist wants vs. what the protagonist needs, and in it's current incarnation this story currently lacks the wants and the needs are homogenized amongst all heroes. The conflict of these two factions is fine, but it isn't enough to be the singular motive of each character, what they want has to exist for what they need to be the battle. The other flaw of the endless war is that it is futile and something we don't actually care about. How much would we care about The Battle for Helm's Deep or The Battle of Stalingrad if they didn't feel like the most important battles ever or if there would be another one every couple of minutes? It makes sense logically, millions of players playing millions of DotA matches is endless, but it doesn't help the story. Rather than endless, make the battle of DotA the one battle that really matters, the one Stalingrad, the one Helm's Deep, reimagined each game. Right now we have no stake.

          As is, we have a story about two factions whose only differences are superficial fighting a never ending war with combatants with the same motivation whom are grouped by their appearance. We don't care about the factions because they are almost the same. We don't care about the conflict because what they are fighting for doesn't matter to us. We don't care about the characters because they all have the same goal and are merely pawns in this game of arbitrary superpowers. This is bad storytelling. Instead of working to point out the similarities of the factions, work to point out their differences. Instead of an endless war, make this battle the one that really matters. Instead of heroes fighting for the same reason just on two different sides, give them unique causes and motives. Embrace the differences and contrasts of the factions, ideologies, and heroes. If you want to tell a good story you have to capture our attention and then hold it; make us care.

          TL;DR

          The factions are too similar, the conflict too generic and pointless, and the characters are gimped by their homogenized single motivation.


          I had written a well thought out and cleaner critique, but it was lost with some log in/log out error. Hopefully this suffices. If something isn't clear or doesn't make sense, please ask.
          Last edited by Eternalsteelfan; 01-26-2012, 09:29 PM.

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          • #80
            Just wanted to say thanks for the recent references to the Knights of the Fold, and the Bleeding Hills in Silencer's and Clinkz's lore. Little things like that go a long way.

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            • #81
              Here's a interesting spin on things

              What if, while the radiant and dire were formally at war before the mad moon, they are not actually at war now. But what has happened is that the incidental influence of the radiant/dire shards are causing heros/cultures/wildlife to go at war with eachother (for heros, for their own personal gain, for wildlife, converting them to creeps or just generally making them more hostile). But this brings a big issue, what has happened with the shard is that they split equally dire and radiant. The shards did this intentionally so that there power was spread out evenly enough to not do (great) damage to the world they have landed on. But if lets say the radiant destroys almost all the dire shards, the remain few dire shards will become so powerful that they will destroy the world.

              So it isn't a endless war exactly, but it's the ancient's struggle keep it's own power in balance, so that either side doesn't get too powerful. In fact, maybe this whole war is just all about trying to keep things balanced in the galaxy, and the radiant/dire didn't intentionally break into the mad moon, but one side got the upper hand, leading to the explosion of the mad moon itself (and killing all the creeps that were formally in the moon, the creeps as of current are from the converted wildlife/lesser people).

              The primordial could be the true antagonist's of this all, they could be the force that's trying to break this balance. As in the primordial are naturally chaotic and they despise something that can keep as balanced as the ancients, so they did the worst thing they could imagine, put the ancients into a single spot to conclude it's war that was never supposed to end. To which they succeeded in that regard, but didn't imagine the ancient power would stay in the mad moon shards.
              Last edited by xf11; 02-01-2012, 11:11 PM.

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              • #82
                could also play around with the idea that the ancients were the first mortals to exist, bringing the struggle between life (radiant) and death (dire) into this universe, and showing that everything comes to an end at some point. Something that the primordials (perhaps beings who are immortal and all powerful) oppose greatly.

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                • #83
                  What about the creeps? Are they still being called Melee Creep and Ranged Creep now? They should have better names like Radiant Melee, Radiant Mage, Dire Melee and Dire Warlock... something like that.

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                  • #84
                    Would like to add to the lore that the Ancients grant telepathy and the ability to morph items to their needs.

                    Otherwise it wont make much sense to some heroes, such as Viper, who clearly cannot equip items like any form of Boots, and clearly cannot hold any weapons.

                    Telepathy would make sense because, otherwise, each hero should only be able to see their own Field of Vision.
                    He's the hero this community deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt his identity, because he can take it, because he's not our hero. He's a silent buffer, a watchful nerfer. An IceFrog.

                    My Speedtest Result

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by d.phoenixxx View Post
                      Would like to add to the lore that the Ancients grant telepathy and the ability to morph items to their needs.

                      Otherwise it wont make much sense to some heroes, such as Viper, who clearly cannot equip items like any form of Boots, and clearly cannot hold any weapons.

                      Telepathy would make sense because, otherwise, each hero should only be able to see their own Field of Vision.
                      Why.....

                      Why are we trying to explain away gameplay designs? The lore would become ridiculous if we tried to do so. Leave the gameplay for what it is, and take the lore for what it is.
                      Why should I fear Death? If Death is,
                      I am not, if I am, Death is not. So why
                      should I fear that which can only exist if
                      I do not?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Elmy View Post
                        Why.....

                        Why are we trying to explain away gameplay designs? The lore would become ridiculous if we tried to do so. Leave the gameplay for what it is, and take the lore for what it is.
                        What is wrong with granting of said powers?

                        I know the items part is cheesy, but telepathy does make sense. Otherwise, resurrection wont make sense either.

                        Remember its just a game, take it in your stride.
                        He's the hero this community deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt his identity, because he can take it, because he's not our hero. He's a silent buffer, a watchful nerfer. An IceFrog.

                        My Speedtest Result

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Well would you look at that. OD has the first mention of the Ancients in his lore.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            There's a bit of a gap in why certain heroes are aligned to the Dire or the Radiant. To be honest, with the coming of DotA 2, heroes like Invoker are moreof types for The Radiant. He seems to be more like them than like the Dire.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Akuran View Post
                              There's a bit of a gap in why certain heroes are aligned to the Dire or the Radiant. To be honest, with the coming of DotA 2, heroes like Invoker are moreof types for The Radiant. He seems to be more like them than like the Dire.
                              I disagree.
                              I find that Invoker is more of an arrogant elitist "power at all costs, and at the sake of others" "Im the best" type of guy.
                              He doesnt care about what happens around him as long as it benefits him and he enjoys it.
                              He's the hero this community deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt his identity, because he can take it, because he's not our hero. He's a silent buffer, a watchful nerfer. An IceFrog.

                              My Speedtest Result

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Lamprey View Post
                                Lore In Progress:

                                When the World was still a cooling blob, it captured an eerie companion--a glowing crystalline sphere that came to be known in lore as the Mad Moon. This small orb was full of violent radiance--a visual reminder of conflict in the heavens, bright enough to compete with the sun in daylight.

                                But the Mad Moon was no inert rock. It was more truly a prison, in which two warring ancient intelligences had been captured and flung into exile aeons before, once the vast Primordials that underlay creation had tired of their endless strife. The punishment for these Ancients was to be locked together in one form, forever falling through infinity...and thus it went until our unfortunate world captured that wanderer.

                                For ages, primitive societies rose and fell beneath its weird glare; creatures of varying intelligence and sophistication gazed up in wonder and curiosity, to whatever extent their sentience allowed. Meanwhile, orbital stress and tidal forces allowed the Mad Moon's inhabitants to begin exploit what were at first the slightest of weaknesses, as they set to work prying open their prison. The cracks spread slowly, from the tiniest fractures, until at last there were millions of fissures, vast and aglow with weird energies.

                                On one apocalyptic night, the moon finally shattered, torn apart from within. Most of the moonstuff was flung into space or consumed as it hit the atmosphere. A few rare fragments fell to earth, either as fused molten lumps or as jagged crystals. The shards lay where they had fallen, and gradually the land around them recovered. As the survivors of the prehistoric cataclysm recuperated, flourished and developed civilizations, the Mad Moon became less a memory than a dream, with the night of its destruction woven into their myths.

                                The fallen shards of primal matter had fractured into their original composites: Radiant and Dire. In its pure form, each type of stone gave off a peculiar energy. For those who settled around the sites, they found themselves feeding on this unearthly power until they had not only harnessed the energy but made themselves dependent on it. They built shrines around the Ancients and revered them, ironically, as godlike entities that had fallen to earth.

                                The Ancients, both Radiant and Dire, provided many benefits: kinetic energy, mana, protection, even resurrection. But the emanations changed everything in their influence. Around the Radiant, the effects were bright and colorful, evoking lightness and charm. Around the Dire, a sinister radioactive glow, a visual seepage indicative of poison and decay. Neither force was neutral; they were both perfect complements and total contradictions that could never be at peace.

                                As each stone's cultural influence spread, it eventually came in conflict with the societies of its rival. Interference between the Ancients was cause for war, as the presence of one caused a corresponding fall-off in the energy of the other. Each stone could only be restored to full power with the destruction of its Foe-stone. And so the enthralled creatures rallied to protect their land by destroying the neighboring Ancient, and from far and wide the Heroes heard the call to battle and came to join, hardly realizing that in some sense both sides were the same.

                                For all this time, the Ancients had been patiently working to resume the timeless war that had been the cause of their initial banishment. And as Heroes from all over found themselves drawn into the fray, none suspected that they were taking part in the ultimate battle of a conflict that had raged since the beginning of time.

                                This lore underlies some of what appeared in "Tales From the Secret Shop" comic...it normally wouldn't be exposed outside of actual storytelling, but since people want more insight and the ability to comment on the lore in progress, I'm posting it here.
                                I love this version, very fleshed out and well developed.
                                What I like the most about it is the reference to the Aeon of Strife.
                                It was more truly a prison, in which two warring ancient intelligences had been captured and flung into exile aeons before, once the vast Primordials that underlay creation had tired of their endless strife.
                                Excellent writing.
                                Last edited by blindsniper; 02-25-2012, 07:25 PM.

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