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Lycan as a Radiant Hero

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  • Lycan as a Radiant Hero

    First off, I get it. I understand that Lycan, moving from Dota to Dota 2, was kept on the "bad" side. Everything about his look to his design to some of his savage responses indicate that he's a ferocious, negative, "hero". However, I would argue that he is far from evil. It's often a gray area, the idea of an "anti-hero". That you can be inherently good while not appearing it. There are plenty of complex examples in Dota 2, like Anti-Mage: someone who wants to destroy all magic (though relies on mana) and would fight alongside mana users. Though he shouldn't. That said, I personally think Lycanthrope would be better suited as a Radiant hero, though I know there are plenty of Radiant Strength heroes already. All it takes is some actual thought to see why someone like Anti-Mage could be Dire and Lycanthrope, Radiant.

    And going off that example, I'd offer Anti-Mage as a good example of a sort of backward ideal, since Lycan and AM are similar stories. AM was an acolyte denied entry into what he wanted. Lycan was born into the place he wanted. Both were children when they experienced death and the end of their "home", and it wasn't their fault. They both then led a life devoted to a cause. Anti-Mage's cause is to eliminating magic - including Radiant magic or even "Good" magic. Lycan's was to survive and possibly bring down those who have wrong him. Right there, Anti-Mage is a little unfocused, whereas Lycan has a cause. Not necessarily those who do wrong, but those who did wrong to him. Even his backstory is pretty clear to me. He belonged to a house that refused to support a tyrant king - though they did for a time, it reached a climax. They rebelled but eventually lost, and were punished for it. Banehollow was a child and victim of circumstance, but adapted to life as he had to.

    I think the biggest pool from which to extract the conclusion that Lycan is a positive hero, thus Radiant, would be from his dialogue in-game.

    Alright Proof

    Moving; "Fealty to none." This line isn't spoken with anger, but is rather passive and actual. He does have lines that he screams or yells, but so does every other character for the most part. This doesn't hint toward Lawful or Unlawful at all, but perhaps Neutral. Still, it isn't done in anger.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/4/4d/Lycan_move_11.mp3

    Shapeshifting back; "I change my coat, but not my ways." This is a powerful statement, because I think it cuts both ways. He's shapeshifting back, granted, and it implies he is a human who has retained his wolf-like ferocity, but also that transforming into a wolf doesn't change his humanity.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/1/13..._revert_01.mp3

    Killing Skeleton King; "'tis no treason to kill a tyrant king." Right here, it seems like his morality is somewhat decided though unclear, but it clearly errs on the side of good. It is treason to kill a lawful king, not a tyrant king, it would suggest. And this is directed at a Dire hero.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/8/88/Lycan_rival_15.mp3

    Good Proof

    Meeting Lone Druid; "Ah, Lone Druid! A kindred spirit." This is said to Lone Druid, clearly because they're both Shapeshifters. However, Lone Druid is an ancient Good Radiant hero. Lycan himself would then see Lone Druid as a kindred, fellow thing. His responses when he kills Lone Druid are just ... things. He's not bragging, or anything, though one response is remoreseful. There is an unused response that might suggest it was for Lone Druid, but we've no way of knowing unless Valve uses it or clarifies: it's, "It pains me to kill you brother, but it had to be done." Again, this line is spoken softly and with anguish.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/9/9a/Lycan_ally_02.mp3
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/3/3d/Lycan_rival_07.mp3
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/3/3b/Lycan_rival_22.mp3

    Dying; "Noble by birth, humbled by death." This line doesn't lean one way or another, considering most heroes have something that's an outlier, though I'l count it as Lycanthrope being at least sensible. It's right in line with the idea of taking down tyrant kings and recognizing his place in the the world as both a noble and a monster. I can't think of (but I'm sure there are) any heroes from Radiant who would say something vile after death, nor Dire heroes who would say something so humbling to themselves. Factual, maybe, like "Now I die.", but nothing like this.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/d/dc/Lycan_death_08.mp3

    Best Proof:

    Buying an Item; "For a noble cause." Self-explanatory, I'd say. Noble is synonymous with good.
    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/5/56/Lycan_purch_03.mp3

    Lastly, these last two lines are ambiguous. I get that. However, I'd like it to sort of be the final tone.

    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/d/d2...respawn_09.mp3

    http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/7/7c/Lycan_rare_03.mp3

    Or, I dunno. Your thoughts? There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, but that can be said of so many heroes. I just don't think to the extent I posted here.
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  • #2
    it's been said on way more than one ocassion that the radiant doesn't mean "good" nor the dire means "evil" and each hero has it's own reasons for being on each side.
    Originally posted by daed
    This is another example as to why the developers should never seriously take in consideration any post on the dev forums.

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    • #3
      Yeah, the Radiant/Dire alignment thing is kind of messed up with the new lores, but I think it's more like "people from this area against people from that area", just like real life. Either way, it isn't actually stated anywhere which side they are on, which could imply that they actually don't have sides.

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      • #4
        All of you are absolutely correct, imo. So far, this Radiant / Dire alignment thing SEEMS messed up to us. And both sides doesn't seem to mean "good" and "evil" due to the heroes aligned to them. However, in the game files, it IS stated that the Radiant side is the"good" side and vice versa. In other words, I think it shows that Valve DID intend the sides to be a cliche Good vs Bad setting. Maaan, I dunno if they should all be neutral or rewrite every lore, epic or not.

        BTW, I *think* this should be in PlayDota

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        • #5
          Originally posted by OverseerHacker View Post
          However, in the game files, it IS stated that the Radiant side is the"good" side and vice versa. In other words, I think it shows that Valve DID intend the sides to be a cliche Good vs Bad setting.
          the factions are called "goodguys" and "badguys" in the gamefiles because that is basically how you would label two factions who arent named yet.
          the artstyle (creeps, buildings, terrain) of both factions also follows the cliche of having a good side and a bad side. that however is where the black and white thinking ends.
          the lore doesnt even explain radiant and dire any further. it simply adds more and more mostly "greyish" heroes to the field.
          they are not added to either side because they are good or evil. they are added because their motives are matching. those motives can be "good" motives, but they can also be "bad" ones. mostly they are "greyish" though.
          examples:
          greed - dire - bh, meepo
          conquest/warmongering - dire - axe
          blood-/fleshlust - dire - bloodseeker, necro, pudge
          hivemind - dire - nyx, brood
          pride - radiant - sven, zeus
          faith/fanatism - radiant - chen, omni
          revenge - radiant - venge, antimage
          protection/perservance - radiant - trellen,trellen


          my examples might be a bit flawed, but there is a better and far more comprehensive list by grandcrusader in this forum section.
          Last edited by blash365; 06-01-2013, 04:43 AM.
          Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

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          • #6
            but bh is radiant

            however, from his lines, he seems to get satisfaction from bringing bounties to justice
            ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ raise your hype ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ

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            • #7
              As long as there is no normal mode I don't care where Lycan is.

              In WC3 DotA normal mode means Radiant (Sentinel) players can only pick Radiant heroes and Dire (Scourge) players can only pick Dire heroes.
              James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
              * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
              Spoiler: 


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              • #8
                Lycan belongs on scourge

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by noobschoolbus View Post
                  Lycan belongs on scourge
                  Ok, first off

                  Scourge = DoTA1

                  DoTA1 Lore =/= Dota2 Lore (for the most part)

                  Just to elaborate a little further, many many background hero stories have been changed/modified/retconned in favor to a new lore developed by Valve as an independant world (just look at the Mad Moon, the Ancients and all that stuff that has been already established).

                  Even though Dota2 is meant to be a port for DoTA, lore wise it doesn't look like that and more like a remake of lore established on the backgrounds given to each heroes on DoTA1 (mostly to eliminate partial or total reference to the Warcraft III Lore).

                  That being said, in Dota2 the alignment in the background story of each hero has been left in neutral for the most part (probably due the fact that the "All Pick" mode has become the default mode of Dota2), another point to take into consideration is that Radiant and Dire are no longer seeing as Good and Evil factions, each of them have their own reasons to challenge the other one. the Scourge / Sentinel rivalry is still there but the focus is no longer about the Sentinels waging their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Scourge.

                  Now taking all of that into consideration, Banehallow the Lycanthrope in Dota2, is a story of betrayal and revenge, but as stated for the OP, Lycan no longer seems to be a evil alignment character (not a lawful good either but maybe is in between?), but stating that Lycan should be Dire just because of DoTA1, is an empty argument. Of course a change like this won't take ANY effect on gameplay, as stated in this section is pure lorewise consistency.

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                  • #10
                    It comes down to this: I understand why he's Dire. I don't understand why he isn't Radiant.

                    Just think about that for a second.

                    And like I stated right off the bat, I do get it. I get that Good and Bad have no real place here. That's why I reworked it as Positive and Negative. However, even that's flawed. What DOES seem to be the case, though, is that Radiant is more about the greater good and Dire is about the individual. The Dire heroes may work for higher, powerful causes beyond them, or come from such places (Outworld, Invoker, Leshrac), but they ultimately serve themselves and not others. The Dire that do serve another cause, usually do because of enslavement (Lifestealer, Undying). Some heroes on Radiant do have their own "thing", like Earthshaker or Tiny who share a very similar story. And they are definitely all individuals unto themselves. But I guess the concept is "yourself or others".

                    Still, that said, I feel like the backstory to Lycanthrope doesn't actually lean one way or another. I feel like it's one of the grayest of grays there is, and I guess there's some poetry in the idea of the Grey Wolf. You can totally take the information here and build the bridge to there, definitely. I can easily see Lycanthrope as one of the more negative heroes out there. But so is Chen. So again, that doesn't matter.

                    All that's clear is that Lycan was a victim, he belonged to a noble house that tried to serve a noble cause, as he still does. He wants revenge, but is also building up his house, if we're to take item descriptions to heart too (I do). With his new set comes a new emblem for his House.

                    His voice work can be aggressive at times, but also very playful and whimsical, and he shows remorse for other heroes and that's extremely rare. Listen to the lines again, because I really think that's an important facet.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GrandCrusader View Post
                      Now taking all of that into consideration, Banehallow the Lycanthrope in Dota2, is a story of betrayal and revenge, but as stated for the OP, Lycan no longer seems to be a evil alignment character (not a lawful good either but maybe is in between?), but stating that Lycan should be Dire just because of DoTA1, is an empty argument. Of course a change like this won't take ANY effect on gameplay, as stated in this section is pure lorewise consistency.
                      I don't think you can say Lawful or Unlawful for him. He isn't lawful as clearly, lines like, "Fealty to none" imply he won't bow down to anyone. He does seem to follow the ideals of nobility and being a noble person / beast. That definitely does have rules to it. So it depends on the expansion of his backstory, if we ever get one. The real way to decide is to know his real, true character. And we don't have that.

                      I'd say he's either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral (though seems to serve a sensible mentality).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pillbinge View Post
                        I don't think you can say Lawful or Unlawful for him. He isn't lawful as clearly, lines like, "Fealty to none" imply he won't bow down to anyone. He does seem to follow the ideals of nobility and being a noble person / beast.
                        That was my point, he doesn't fall within those terms but within something else. although I'd be more inclined to a Neutral alignment, mostly because being Chaotic will also imply a chaotic behaviour which Banehallow lacks (going as far as acknowledging other beings as a kindred spirits with him).

                        So it depends on the expansion of his backstory, if we ever get one. The real way to decide is to know his real, true character. And we don't have that.
                        Maybe so, but at the lack of evidence we can always unearth some lore from his official backstory.

                        Banehallow was noble-born to the house of Ambry, the greatest of the landed castes in the old kingdom of Slom. Before the Fall, as the King’s wants grew strange, and his court grew crowded with sorcerers and charlatans, the house of Ambry was the first to rise against the avarice of the throne.

                        No longer willing to pay homage and fealty, they instead sent six-thousand swords into the capital, where they were wiped out in the Massacre of the Apostates. And then came the teeth behind the old truth: When you strike a king’s neck, you had better take his head.

                        Enraged by the betrayal, the king exterminated the vast Ambry bloodline, sparing only the lord of the house and his youngest son, Banehallow. Before all the royal court, with the disgraced lord chained to the ornate marble floor, the King bade his magicians transform the boy into a wolf so that he might tear out his own father’s throat. “Do this,” the king said, “so that Lord Ambry will understand the bite of betrayal.”

                        Powerful magic was invoked, and the child was transformed. But though his body was changed, his spirit remained intact, and instead of biting the exposed neck of his father, he attacked his handlers, tearing them to pieces. A dozen of the King’s knights perished under the wolf’s teeth before they managed to drive it off into the night. Lord Ambry laughed from his chains even as the King ran him through with a sword.

                        Now the heir to the lost house of Ambry, Banehallow wanders the trail as the Lycan, part warrior, part wolf, in search of justice for all that he lost.


                        In a TD;RD version. His house was corrupted and betrayed, his father murdered and his assassins transformed him into a feral beast, transformation which backfired killing them in the process, now he's a wanderer in search of revenge (or "justice" as his bio states). He retains his consciousness even after the transformation, making him not only aware of his actions but where to focus his rage as well.

                        But my point on bringing all this up was this, the alignment seems to be less and less important for the hero to choose a faction (or to be placed in one). There are many Dire heroes that are more neutral than chaotic evil. To my perspective the Radiant/Dire lack of any evidence of being good or evil, that said, Lycan's motivations and bio seems more fitting to the Radiant side than to the Dire.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What about Faceless Void and Dazzle? I think they are the only Dire heroes that can be seen as good. They are fighting to bring peace to all dimensions.

                          Darkterror the Faceless Void is a visitor from Claszureme, a realm outside of time. It remains a mystery why this being from another dimension believes the struggle for the Nemesis Stones is worth entering our physical plane, but apparently an upset in the balance of power in this world has repercussions in adjacent dimensions. Time means nothing to Darkterror, except as a way to thwart his foes and aid his allies. His long-view of the cosmos has given him a remote, disconnected quality, although in battle he is quite capable of making it personal.

                          Each young acolyte to the Dezun order must complete a series of rites before becoming a shadow priest. The final rite, the rite of shades, is a harrowing spiritual journey through the Nothl Realm, an unpredictable domain from which not all visitants return. Of those who do, some return mad. Others return with strange aptitudes. But all who go there are changed by their experiences. Driven by the need for enlightenment, Dazzle was the youngest of his tribe ever to request the sacred ritual. At first the order refused him, saying he was too young. But Dazzle was not to be dissuaded. Sensing something special in the headstrong young acolyte, the elders relented. Dazzle drank down the sacred potion and sat by the fire while the rest of his tribe danced through the night. In this ethereal dimension of the Nothl Realm, the properties of light and dark are inverted. Thus his brilliant healing light, beautiful to our eye, is actually a sinister kind of evil; and the darkest deeds are done in a dazzling glow. The elders' intuition was prophetic: Dazzle returned to his people as a Shadow Priest like none seen before, with the power to heal as well as to destroy. Now he uses his gift to fight his enemies and help his friends.
                          Last edited by Rainbow Nagger; 06-01-2013, 04:37 PM.
                          Originally posted by malachiel
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rainbow Nagger View Post
                            What about Faceless Void and Dazzle? I think they are the only Dire heroes that can be seen as good. They are fighting to bring peace to all dimensions.

                            Darkterror the Faceless Void is a visitor from Claszureme, a realm outside of time. It remains a mystery why this being from another dimension believes the struggle for the Nemesis Stones is worth entering our physical plane, but apparently an upset in the balance of power in this world has repercussions in adjacent dimensions. Time means nothing to Darkterror, except as a way to thwart his foes and aid his allies. His long-view of the cosmos has given him a remote, disconnected quality, although in battle he is quite capable of making it personal.

                            Each young acolyte to the Dezun order must complete a series of rites before becoming a shadow priest. The final rite, the rite of shades, is a harrowing spiritual journey through the Nothl Realm, an unpredictable domain from which not all visitants return. Of those who do, some return mad. Others return with strange aptitudes. But all who go there are changed by their experiences. Driven by the need for enlightenment, Dazzle was the youngest of his tribe ever to request the sacred ritual. At first the order refused him, saying he was too young. But Dazzle was not to be dissuaded. Sensing something special in the headstrong young acolyte, the elders relented. Dazzle drank down the sacred potion and sat by the fire while the rest of his tribe danced through the night. In this ethereal dimension of the Nothl Realm, the properties of light and dark are inverted. Thus his brilliant healing light, beautiful to our eye, is actually a sinister kind of evil; and the darkest deeds are done in a dazzling glow. The elders' intuition was prophetic: Dazzle returned to his people as a Shadow Priest like none seen before, with the power to heal as well as to destroy. Now he uses his gift to fight his enemies and help his friends.
                            i dont see anything that hints at a peaceful nature of either of them.
                            void has his own agenda of bringing order/stability to the dimensions he supervises. he isnt exactly bothered with the petty things going on in his current plane. yes, he has allies but having allies in a conquest doesnt make someone peaceful. a peaceful hero would be someone who tries to calm down the tides and reach a compromise.
                            i also dont think he is too friendly in his voice acting. more twisted, i'd say.

                            same goes for dazzle. he can heal and he can destroy. he only cares for his allies and who those are is unclear. maybe it's simply his tribe and he wants to extinct everybody else.

                            most likely the "allies" and "foes" are simply the heroes fighting for each of the ancients in a dota match, in which case both heroes would be pragmatic at most.

                            there simply is no room for a peaceful-good hero in dota unless there is a true-evil faction that is impossible to reach a treaty with. maybe enchantress is a rare example of it still being a possibility. a hero too "good" to grasp the "evil" he is doing (puck?) when killing off a foe or simply too empatic about it (ench).
                            there was one heroconcept for abbadon on this forum in which the hero would be forced to do evil by a demon, while still trying to resist in his voice acting. that is another of the rare ways i'd consider a hero to be "good" in the current universe.
                            Last edited by blash365; 06-01-2013, 05:17 PM.
                            Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                            Contributions i'd like to highlight:
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                            My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                            My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

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                            • #15
                              dazzle uses the evilest of magic, so he can hardly be classified as good
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