Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

Patch Anticipation Station

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
    Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
    Tribunal works better in LoL because of the length of their punishment as well as the player's investment to an account. Tribunal will never work in Dota 2 as well as it did in LoL.
    In LoL you get temporary/permanently banned and you inherently can't trade. Rune and champion purchases are tied to your account. In Dota 2 the punishments are a lot shorter and if you get muted or LPQed you can still trade which means you can just jump to a new account. So making a new account in LoL is a pain. You have to level up your account, purchase high level runes and get your favorite champions again. Meanwhile in Dota 2 you don't face any of these problems instead you can trade your cosmetic items to a new account which is in LoL not possible. Also punishments in Dota 2 are compared to LoL a lot shorter. By the time your case gets reviewed you might already have finished your punishment.

    In LoL people are reluctant to make a new account because of all the progress they made. If they get temporary banned most will temporary stop playing. That is not the case in Dota 2. This is also why you aren't suspended from playing. Instead you can still play but you have to play with other players who did bad things as well. If you cannot fix your problem (be it within your control or not) and you cannot bear the consequences you have to stop playing.

    As you said Tribunal has been down.... since January 2014.
    I don't know why it was put down but I agree that it can work in LoL well but it won't work in Dota 2 due to the nature of punishment. They will probably put it back up someday. PhD RiotLyte dislikes the idea of "Prisoner Island" (LPQ equivalent).
    Erik, you can view my post here. Before Whale commented I already put out my thoughts.

    I haven't said they are unsolvable. I've pointed out the flaws. But apparently being critical means being close-minded. Meanwhile saying it would work without thinking it properly through means being open-minded?
    Like WhaleRum, you point out flaws and then stop, as if they can't be solved. I agree that given the differences in how accounts are treated by players between the games, account restrictions have more bite in League than DotA 2. Fair point. But you can't use this to argue against player review because if you really think this is an issue, then having a dumb, automated system does nothing either. 24 hour comm. ban? Let me switch to another account. Problem solved. (FYI, I haven't been comm. banned since the last time the system failed.)

    Your other flaw was, "Also punishments in Dota 2 are compared to LoL a lot shorter." This is as bad as Whale's flaws. You think punishment length is not changeable?
    We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



    merci fenix

    Comment


    • Also regarding Blaeko: I'm supporting his idea: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=91952
      Made my comment the same day he made the thread.

      I don't know what your point is. I've said multiple times that the current system is not flawless. But apparently arguing with valid arguments that weren't properly refuted means I'm being close minded.

      I've said that I would support the idea if it works. But the current idea (with its "improvements") isn't an idea I could support.
      James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
      * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
      Spoiler: 


      Comment


      • I don't think they will change the report/mute system. Not enough complaints.
        ψ RAISE YOUR PITCHFORKS ψ
        Valve's TO DO LIST (I see you guys keep forgetting so I made one for you):
        - Viper remodel - Slardar remodel - Pit Lord
        - Manila Compendium - New UI - 6.88 (a real patch this time)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
          Also regarding Blaeko: I'm supporting his idea: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=91952
          Made my comment the same day he made the thread.
          Then why did you treat Whale's post as authoritative? You know that some of the flaws he mentioned were easily solvable.

          I don't know what your point is. I've said multiple times that the current system is not flawless. But apparently arguing with valid arguments that weren't properly refuted means I'm being close minded.

          I've said that I would support the idea if it works. But the current idea (with its "improvements") isn't an idea I could support.
          Which of your arguments have I not refuted?
          We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



          merci fenix

          Comment


          • Patch on thursday? Ded gaem/thread needs one

            Comment


            • Originally posted by erik-the-red View Post
              Then why did you treat Whale's post as authoritative? You know that some of the flaws he mentioned were easily solvable.

              Which of your arguments have I not refuted?
              Point out where I treat Whale's post as authoritative? I don't know much about Overwatch. I don't play CS:GO. I mostly talked about Tribunal since I'm familiar with Tribunal/LoL. God forbid me for saying:
              Whalerum has pointed out that there are people criticizing the Overwatch system.
              Is it so bad to look at the negatives of the overwatch system? Should we just ignore those negative aspects? Should we instead say it can be fixed but we currently don't know how. Just implement it and look at the mess it creates later?! What kind of discussion is this?

              Tribunal works better in LoL because of the length of their punishment as well as the player's investment to an account. Tribunal will never work in Dota 2 as well as it did in LoL.
              In LoL you get temporary/permanently banned and you inherently can't trade. Rune and champion purchases are tied to your account. In Dota 2 the punishments are a lot shorter and if you get muted or LPQed you can still trade which means you can just jump to a new account. So making a new account in LoL is a pain. You have to level up your account, purchase high level runes and get your favorite champions again. Meanwhile in Dota 2 you don't face any of these problems instead you can trade your cosmetic items to a new account which is in LoL not possible. Also punishments in Dota 2 are compared to LoL a lot shorter. By the time your case gets reviewed you might already have finished your punishment.

              In LoL people are reluctant to make a new account because of all the progress they made. If they get temporary banned most will temporary stop playing. That is not the case in Dota 2. This is also why you aren't suspended from playing. Instead you can still play but you have to play with other players who did bad things as well. If you cannot fix your problem (be it within your control or not) and you cannot bear the consequences you have to stop playing.

              As you said Tribunal has been down.... since January 2014.
              I don't know why it was put down but I agree that it can work in LoL well but it won't work in Dota 2 due to the nature of punishment. They will probably put it back up someday. PhD RiotLyte dislikes the idea of "Prisoner Island" (LPQ equivalent).
              Can you really argue that losing your account in LoL hurts less than losing your account in Dota 2?
              Just compare the two game.

              The Tribunal works in LoL because losing an account in LoL hurts. Making a new account in LoL is a pain. You have to farm runes and champions. You don't struggle with these problems in Dota 2. If you cannot think of something that makes it hurt and with that I mean concrete examples.
              The trading items aspect can be solved. Kat already "refuted" it by making it impossible for the player to give the items away but simultaneously it would restrict a lot of other users. Users who may learn/reform/whatever. That's 1 "refuted" argument that brings other problems.

              I didn't say these issues were "unsolvable". It's that I can't think of a solution to make it work and the proposed solutions by kat aren't solutions I can live with.

              Sure you can make the punishment longer. You refuted 1 argument of my post (which I don't consider as the main argument) and treated it as refuting my whole post. Punishment in LoL is game suspension while in Dota 2 it's LPQ. Should people be game suspended in Dota 2 as well? A lot of people would create new accounts and have the added benefit of being able to smurf.

              Also I didn't say the Tribunal in LoL is bad instead I said it works in LoL. I am not entirely against a Tribunal like system in Dota 2. But when suggesting such thing is it too much of me to ask for a more fleshed out idea? No. This means I'm close-minded and a Valve Knight.
              A Valve Knight that makes constructive criticism against ideas and even against Valve. Dig up my posts and you see bug reports and some rants.

              Each system has its advantages and disadvantages. While in LoL there is more control in Dota 2 there is more freedom. Valve attempted to solve CC fraud by putting in limitation. Temporary trade ban on accounts bought on market. But with that you inevitably restrict honest users as well. I'm sure the community would be happy if Valve puts as much restriction on Dota 2 as Riot does. Dota 2 is a free game. LoL is a game where you have to unlock a lot.

              I'm well aware that the current system is not flawless and I've never said it is flawless.
              James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
              * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
              Spoiler: 


              Comment


              • tbh this thread has gotten a lot fucking more serious than it was supposed to be.

                This would be the only time interesting for the devs if they lurked in here. But I guess they just manage to be here when we shittalk last patch or try to summon the frog.
                Originally posted by katsaroulhs
                Also, I am laughing so hard because you people actually expected smth better from Valve. Some of you have been here for years. Some of us have been here from the beta, watching this mess of a game getting developed. And you STILL are surprised when you are fed shit. [...]

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ischtar View Post
                  Patch on thursday? Ded gaem/thread needs one

                  Originally posted by Phoenix.
                  2013: 10 heroes, 3 reworks, 4 events, hats, 1 arcana and TI
                  2014: 4 heroes, 2 events, 2 arcanas, hats, 1 rework and TI.
                  Lazyness. Not to mention the lack of bugfixes, and the amount of new ones with each new content added


                  Credits to Phoenix.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
                    Is it so bad to look at the negatives of the overwatch system? Should we just ignore those negative aspects? Should we instead say it can be fixed but we currently don't know how. Just implement it and look at the mess it creates later?! What kind of discussion is this?
                    Total straw man argument. There is nothing wrong with looking at the negatives. We should do that. I have never said we should not discuss negatives.

                    The problem is that you and WhaleRum are acting as if the negatives you mention can't be addressed: "Should we instead say it can be fixed but we currently don't know how?" Funny how I'm arguing that the negatives you mention can easily be addressed, and you are acting as if I'm ignoring them. Don't do this.

                    Can you really argue that losing your account in LoL hurts less than losing your account in Dota 2?
                    What the fuck? I didn't argue this. I said the opposite: "I agree that given the differences in how accounts are treated by players between the games, account restrictions have more bite in League than DotA 2. Fair point."

                    Take it easy with the straw men.

                    The Tribunal works in LoL because losing an account in LoL hurts. Making a new account in LoL is a pain. You have to farm runes and champions. You don't struggle with these problems in Dota 2. If you cannot think of something that makes it hurt and with that I mean concrete examples.
                    I also said, "But you can't use this to argue against player review because if you really think this is an issue, then having a dumb, automated system does nothing either. 24 hour comm. ban? Let me switch to another account. Problem solved. (FYI, I haven't been comm. banned since the last time the system failed.)"

                    Sure you can make the punishment longer. You refuted 1 argument of my post (which I don't consider as the main argument) and treated it as refuting my whole post. Punishment in LoL is game suspension while in Dota 2 it's LPQ. Should people be game suspended in Dota 2 as well? A lot of people would create new accounts and have the added benefit of being able to smurf.
                    OK, so your "main argument" is that Tribunal can't work in DotA 2 because it's so easy to smurf. CONNECT THE DOTS, PLEASE. If you argue this way, then our current system is also worthless for the same reason.

                    Also I didn't say the Tribunal in LoL is bad instead I said it works in LoL. I am not entirely against a Tribunal like system in Dota 2. But when suggesting such thing is it too much of me to ask for a more fleshed out idea? No. This means I'm close-minded and a Valve Knight.
                    You're not asking for a more fleshed out idea. You're saying that there's problems and then ignoring or downplaying when kat and I explicitly give solutions to these problems.

                    Edit

                    It's not like I'm saying "that's solvable" without giving a concrete solution. I gave solutions to the "problems" Whale brought up. You yourself even acknowledge that tagging specific lines in chat addresses the "problem" of not knowing what to look at in an hour-long game.
                    We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



                    merci fenix

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by crowblade View Post
                      tbh this thread has gotten a lot fucking more serious than it was supposed to be.

                      This would be the only time interesting for the devs if they lurked in here. But I guess they just manage to be here when we shittalk last patch or try to summon the frog.
                      im just skipping these wall of text pos posts. no patch anticipation - not relevant
                      just another lol vs dota bullshit
                      Drow is love, Drow is life. I fap every day.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by erik-the-red View Post
                        Total straw man argument. There is nothing wrong with looking at the negatives. We should do that. I have never said we should not discuss negatives.

                        The problem is that you and WhaleRum are acting as if the negatives you mention can't be addressed: "Should we instead say it can be fixed but we currently don't know how?" Funny how I'm arguing that the negatives you mention can easily be addressed, and you are acting as if I'm ignoring them. Don't do this.
                        If it can be addressed then address them? That's what I've been demanding. If anything you are building a strawman here.
                        You say it can be easily addressed. I don't see it. I can see how it can be solved kat's style but it brings other problems.

                        What the fuck? I didn't argue this. I said the opposite: "I agree that given the differences in how accounts are treated by players between the games, account restrictions have more bite in League than DotA 2. Fair point."

                        Take it easy with the straw men.
                        You wanted me to point out what you haven't refuted yet. Your posts are contradicting.

                        I also said, "But you can't use this to argue against player review because if you really think this is an issue, then having a dumb, automated system does nothing either. 24 hour comm. ban? Let me switch to another account. Problem solved. (FYI, I haven't been comm. banned since the last time the system failed.)"
                        I can use that. I said the Tribunal works in LoL better because in LoL you are game suspended. If you want to play you are forced to make a new account. Which you don't usually do since you have to start from level 1 again.

                        OK, so your "main argument" is that Tribunal can't work in DotA 2 because it's so easy to smurf. CONNECT THE DOTS, PLEASE. If you argue this way, then our current system is also worthless for the same reason.
                        I've never said that the current system is flawless. I've pointed out the flaws of Tribunal. I wasn't comparing Tribunal to the current system. I'm open for a community moderated idea. But I'm not going to support the Tribunal and punishment nature I know from LoL.

                        You're not asking for a more fleshed out idea. You're saying that there's problems and then ignoring or downplaying when kat and I explicitly give solutions to these problems.
                        I'm downplaying kat's solution? Your solution I did acknowledge but it didn't solve everything I mentioned.
                        So kat's solution is to revoke the privilege of giving away items which solves the item trading which is 1 aspect of my post. Is never being able to give away items again because you were (rightfully) punished in the past not a little bit too severe. That would cause a far bigger outcry than the current trade limitation mess which was supposed to combat CC fraud.

                        Edit

                        It's not like I'm saying "that's solvable" without giving a concrete solution. I gave solutions to the "problems" Whale brought up. You yourself even acknowledge that tagging specific lines in chat addresses the "problem" of not knowing what to look at in an hour-long game.
                        Of course I did. Who wouldn't want to know why people reported them? If I say something bad it should show up what I said. That can be integrated in the current system. It is an addition that brings benefits and hardly has any disadvantages.
                        Last edited by GermanViet; 10-27-2015, 11:51 AM.
                        James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
                        * 25.02.16 - † 26.02.16
                        Spoiler: 


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by crowblade View Post
                          Holy fuck, that's one hot female being.
                          Did someone say beauty?

                          PAS HALL OF FAME
                          Spoiler: 

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
                            You wanted me to point out what you haven't refuted yet. Your posts are contradicting.
                            Did you notice that I said, "I agree that given the differences in how accounts are treated by players between the games, account restrictions have more bite in League than DotA 2. Fair point"? How do I refute what I agree with? Seriously, use your brain.

                            I can use that. I said the Tribunal works in LoL better because in LoL you are game suspended. If you want to play you are forced to make a new account. Which you don't usually do since you have to start from level 1 again.
                            And do you realize that under your reasoning, the system we have is totally useless because I can just smurf? Do you realize this?

                            I've never said that the current system is flawless. I've pointed out the flaws of Tribunal. I wasn't comparing Tribunal to the current system. I'm open for a community moderated idea why else would I support Blaeko's idea. But I'm not going to support the Tribunal and punishment nature I know from LoL.
                            Jesus. My signature says "We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2." Keywords: "player review", "like Overwatch." I am not saying we should take a carbon copy of Tribunal or Overwatch for DotA 2. I said we need a player review system of which Overwatch is an example in another game.

                            So once again, you are arguing against something that I am not arguing for.

                            Of course I did. Who wouldn't want to know why people reported them? If I say something bad it should show up what I said. That can be integrated in the current system. It is an addition that brings benefits and hardly has any disadvantages.
                            Thanks for admitting that WhaleRum talked about a problem as if it were fatal when in fact it has a trivial solution.
                            We need a player review system like Overwatch for DotA 2. Get real people to judge communication abuse, intentional skill abuse, and intentional feeding.



                            merci fenix

                            Comment


                            • Are the rumours true that icefrog will sit down with Buny at the end of the year to go over the Bug List Thread and declares what are bugs and what is intended?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Phoenix. View Post
                                Did someone say beauty?

                                more
                                Drow is love, Drow is life. I fap every day.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X