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Add a forfeit function

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  • Trilles
    replied
    Originally posted by Typhox View Post
    To clarify that: The "wasted time" in this case is a couple of seconds.

    Actually the first reason why there is no concede is because it is unsportsmanlike. Have you seen a soccer team giving up 0-7?
    Well, you can argue here that DotA is not that competetive, but I am not sure if people should be forced to get their game ruined because of leavers/forfeiters.
    IMO this argument is just wrong bro. In DotA forfeit happens even without a cc function. People say -ff or gg and leave the game. Even on starcraft (that IS a VERY competitive game) this is what happens. Ofc none online game will be as competitive as a soccer game and these sports out there, but you have to realise that if people ALREADY use some way to concede a Dota 2 match...

    The concede function is just a BETTER WAY for this to happen, but it already does, in every single game, it just happens in a different way for now...

    Leave a comment:


  • Typhox
    replied
    Originally posted by MOJIOKO View Post
    yet still on international were games with 30 kills advantage which ended in 20 minutes and actually been over on like minute 10.
    I didn't see that game on the International, so can you provide a link?
    I really doubt that any game is over after 10 minutes, except maybe the enemy has absolutely no carry which shouldn't happen in CM anyway.

    Your 1/10 "lost" games -> comeback statistic seems also really weird to me. The pubs I was playing in have had at least 1/2 of the games resulting in comebacks (usually it was my enemies who came back, because I owned them so much in early game as a support hero, that they decided to gank me and got fed pretty much all at once - yes, level difference that matters).

    Leave a comment:


  • MOJIOKO
    replied
    If someone in your team want to forfeit, the game is done. Thats just how it is. It's ridiculous to tryhard when your opponents already got decisive advantage and your only hope is enemy's mistake. Because, let's be real, "omgwtfbbq" comebacks happen in like 1/10 "lost" games, if not less. In low pub (like 1600< compared to other moba games, but I really don't care about this swamp) such comebacks pretty common but on high level team score 20-0 means lose and nothing else, 999/1000. There are lost games, no matter how hard you wanna try to deny it.

    Wasting 30 minutes in every game like that is just stupid. Stomps not always happen because of players level of skill in general, it can be just a result of many little mistakes, one big mistake or complete counter pick (on AR for example). Check some tournament games, those guys are best dota 2 teams in entire world, yet still on international were games with 30 kills advantage which ended in 20 minutes and actually been over on like minute 10. It's not about community, attitude or things like that, but about common sense, if you feel like game is over - admit it, gg wp go next, don't waste everyone's time.

    I understand that there are aswell people who just don't want to forfeit no matter what. Fine, let's make ff optional and add it to matchmaking filter. I don't want those people in my team, they don't want me in their. Just in case, I think splitting matchmaking pool is right idea, not now (not enough people playing yet), but after actual release matchmaking should be split in many ways (modes, options etc). I also understand that in beta stage valve need as much time played by testers as possible, and thats the only reason for me to stay in dota 2, I want this game to be the best game ever made. Not for someone else, but for me. So no ff final release - dota 1 leagues all the way.
    Last edited by MOJIOKO; 01-16-2012, 05:17 PM.

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  • Typhox
    replied
    Originally posted by RandomEngy View Post
    Another problem in terms of cost/benefit with the "no concede function whatsoever" is that it assumes that you cannot concede during any part of the game. 30-0 with 4 barracks down and no tower kills? Your chances of winning are fantastically close to zero. But the wasted time is still there. You weight the comeback by the probability that it will happen and it doesn't stack up against the time you spend waiting for the end..
    To clarify that: The "wasted time" in this case is a couple of seconds.

    Actually the first reason why there is no concede is because it is unsportsmanlike. Have you seen a soccer team giving up 0-7?
    Well, you can argue here that DotA is not that competetive, but I am not sure if people should be forced to get their game ruined because of leavers/forfeiters.
    Yes, what would be a first reason without a second reason: Having games like you described, so-called stomps, means that from a developers perspective something is wrong with the game itself or with its matchmaking system. Having a function that allows you to escape a match you don't like sounds very attractive to most people so they don't see the downsides. And one of them is that you're not solving the problem - that people are getting stomped - at all. I see it as a right for Valve to at least have the chance to fix this problem rather than creating a workaround like forfeiting.

    In addition to that, I see an advantage for the community-side here too. People who can't handle to lose a game, or play a lost game usually tend to rage in the end. In fact, not having a concede function allows us to remove everyone who has this attitude from the higher ranks or from the whole game. I like this idea, but I understand that there are many people against this (mostly those who get affected by this).

    Leave a comment:


  • RandomEngy
    replied
    So there are people who want to use DOTA 2's leaver punishment as a tool to force an entire team to play a game they don't want to anymore.

    The stated benefit being some come from behind wins.

    So it's a cost/benefit problem, right? You force everyone to play the game to its bitter conclusion and you get some unexpected comebacks. And you get a heck of a lot of wasted time. For this tradeoff to be worth it at all you have to make an assumption that seems quite unlikely. That almost nobody on the team can recognize that the team has heroes which scale better or that they have better team fight potential. People aren't dumb and they like winning. If they see they can come back by stunning the whole team and ripping them apart, they'll do it. If nobody can see that, they're probably just going to lose just because of lack of experience.

    Another problem in terms of cost/benefit with the "no concede function whatsoever" is that it assumes that you cannot concede during any part of the game. 30-0 with 4 barracks down and no tower kills? Your chances of winning are fantastically close to zero. But the wasted time is still there. You weight the comeback by the probability that it will happen and it doesn't stack up against the time you spend waiting for the end.

    You don't like being annoyed by people that request a concede vote too early? How does that momentary annoyance stack up against a wasted 15 minutes? How about you vote no and move on?

    Anyway you're not going to get rid of defeatist attitudes by forcing them to AFK and browse the internet. A better way would be to explain to your team what to do to come back or why you think you'll be stronger in late game. If you actually talk to your team you may find that they're willing to work together and give it a shot. Leaving out a concede function is by comparison a crude an ineffective way of getting your team to rally and win.

    Leave a comment:


  • ValeN
    replied
    Originally posted by Trilles View Post
    And of course, for the anti-noob or anti-troller thing, the system should start to require only 4 people after some time. Let's say 35 mins? In HoN you could get yourself into a situation of waiting 10 minutes for the concede because a troller didn't want to concede and the other team wanted to fed their stats.
    So now the griefer is the one looking forward to actually play the game? I'm stunned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaxkiller
    replied
    Originally posted by Trilles View Post
    I see you don't have much experience with those numbers.
    lol, your right, I don't have experience with the numbers. But I really think that criteria with different numbers should be met before a forfeit option appears. It would be annoying to see anyone attempt to ferfeit when I think there is still a SMALL chance to win, it's detrimental to your teams spirit to see there are people ready to give up...

    -Vaxkiller

    Leave a comment:


  • Trilles
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaxkiller View Post
    The forfeit option is hard to implement for multiple reasons, but it can be done. THe only reason for a forfeit is for games that are severely one sided, with no chance of even competing, let alone winning. Here is the criteria that needs be met for the forfeit option:
    1. The game must be at least 25? min. or more in length
    2. The score of the winning team must be at least 30? more than the losing team
    3. The current level of all hero's on each team should be added up and if the difference is more than 15?
    4. The gold earned by each team is added up and the difference is more than 8K?


    After the first part of the criteria are all met, then a forfeit option will appear for the losing team, to which ALL members of the losing team must agree to.

    The numbers can be tweaked some, but not much (except maybe the gold one, not sure about that amount)

    Is there anything that could be negative about this system as compared to the current system in place (having no forfeit option)
    -Vaxkiller
    I see you don't have much experience with those numbers.

    4 - A team can easily win against another that went even more than 10K of gold difference.
    1 - 25 mins for a concede vote to happen is a lot. If one game is really one sided as you stated (and as you for sure experienced already), the difference in kills can be of 15 in 15 minutes in the game, wich in this case is HUGE. (almost impossible to win, only if the winning team throws it away) In HoN, the 15 minute indeed imo was a bit too early, this could be increased, but not higher than 20 mins imo. As I said, 15 of difference in hero kills is already a TON, and is almost impossible to change a game with that amount, only if both teams were well balanced (on picks) and both teams have the same/almost the same skill lvl. I would say 18-20 mins minimum would be good.
    3 - I don't know about this. There could be one guy lvl 25 and the others lvl 15. While in the other team they could be all lvl 20. This would do a sum of 85 in one team and 100. But the team with everybody lvl 20 could have a shit load of towers, roshan kills, and more farm overall, wich could give an advantage in gold of more than 15K (wich is again, almost impossible to beat). I don't think the lvl difference should count in this sittuation. If there is one solo player going for a pubber hero like Gondar and he plays well it's easy to get a lot of lvls and kills. But you could still be losing terribly because the rest of your team is suffering.
    2 - In my response to "1" I said that it happens sometimes where a team goes 17/2 let's say in 15 mins. This is a total stomp and for sure could be conceded. But still, they would have to get more 15 kills to be able to concede? That is just not right. If you have a pushing team strategy where you got all 6 towers in 20 mins in the game, what is the point for the other team to continue playing if they don't even have a carry hero?? Will they too have to wait for a ton of kills to be able to concede? And this also goes for the factor that, if Valve decides to save Stats of players (wich is pretty good imo, to make a player envolve and search for good friends to play with) this would not work also, because people wouldn't want to suicide just for a concede.

    IMO it should just work like on the other games. 17-20 mins minimum to concede maybe. No criteria of gold difference, lvl difference, score or even towers. It should be a whole team's decision to stop playing or not.
    And of course, for the anti-noob or anti-troller thing, the system should start to require only 4 people after some time. Let's say 35 mins? In HoN you could get yourself into a situation of waiting 10 minutes for the concede because a troller didn't want to concede and the other team wanted to fed their stats. Having to wait till the 35 mins imo is more than enough.

    And again, I hope Valve is reading all of this and thinking about adding this awesome feature to this game, because it needs it.
    Last edited by Trilles; 01-16-2012, 01:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaxkiller
    replied
    The forfeit option is hard to implement for multiple reasons, but it can be done. THe only reason for a forfeit is for games that are severely one sided, with no chance of even competing, let alone winning. Here is the criteria that needs be met for the forfeit option:
    1. The game must be at least 25? min. or more in length
    2. The score of the winning team must be at least 30? more than the losing team
    3. The current level of all hero's on each team should be added up and if the difference is more than 15?
    4. The gold earned by each team is added up and the difference is more than 8K?


    After the first part of the criteria are all met, then a forfeit option will appear for the losing team, to which ALL members of the losing team must agree to.

    The numbers can be tweaked some, but not much (except maybe the gold one, not sure about that amount)

    Is there anything that could be negative about this system as compared to the current system in place (having no forfeit option)
    -Vaxkiller

    Leave a comment:


  • akaHideinlight
    replied
    Originally posted by Bugball View Post
    I just had a game, you can check it by yourself, where my team was the one pubstomping.

    What a boring match, it's either boring to lose 5 30, or win 30 5. kill towers without defense is just retarded..

    say yes to forfeit
    I know the feeling. I'd rather face another team that's actually a challenge then wasting my time killing towers and creeps.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blarrg
    replied
    There should be an FF option, but it shouldn't be based off the amount of time in game.

    What if they added the function but at least 1 of these requirements must be met.


    1. Two melee raxes are down
    2. KD ratio for the teams are 3:1 or higher


    Then again this might encourage AFK grieving or intentional feeding, but we have a report system for that. So I don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bugball
    replied
    I just had a game, you can check it by yourself, where my team was the one pubstomping.

    What a boring match, it's either boring to lose 5 30, or win 30 5. kill towers without defense is just retarded..

    say yes to forfeit

    Leave a comment:


  • ValeN
    replied
    Concede works in competitive because there is a CAPTAIN, he speaks for the team. Btw, a light hearted scrub is not a captain...

    If you got a arranged 5 man team, alright, forfeit could work. And in tournaments you usually cannot FF before the 30 minute mark. If you are losing games around the 15th minute mark often you shouldn't have a say in the outcome of the game. You definetely need to step up your play first. Call me elitist.

    Kind of a moot discussion, really.

    Getting stomped: i want FF
    Tryhards: No FF and ban those AFKers.

    Just looking at a person's character, i wouldn't want to do anything with a person who gives up in front of frustration. Be it a soccer game or in work or college. You just can't count with them when it matters...
    Last edited by ValeN; 01-16-2012, 12:05 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chairraider
    replied
    Originally posted by Fenald View Post
    This thread is a cesspool of retardation and I'm baffled by valve.

    There are no arguments against concede that make the slightest bit of sense.

    You're not going to beat that 800gpm antimage either assholes.

    Hey assholes, winning is fun. You know what you get for winning? +1 to your win counter +unknown amount of some hidden rating and that warm fuzzy feeling while telling yourself fuck yeah I'm so much better than those kids I just owned.

    What you don't get is the right to use them as a fucking punching bag in the fountain for as long as you want.

    End the fucking game you retards.

    PS fix this games fog you fucks.
    This kind of behaviour or posts are no longer tolerated.

    Originally posted by Fenald View Post
    There is nothing in the forum rules about swearing and I'm quite calm.
    http://dev.dota2.com/announcement.php?f=30&a=3
    Last edited by Chairraider; 01-16-2012, 12:04 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • AlphaOfUrOmega
    replied
    Originally posted by endol View Post
    well,my main point is that concede function doesn't really help change the game ruining itself, but as you might of imagine once concede function is there, 6mins into the game 0-10 your team concede, 10-0 their team concede :/ idk if its a good thing to have. this might be a good solution but we expect for a better solution.>_>
    I liked HoN's restriction of not being able to FF until 15 minutes into the game. It prevented people from just saying 'wow mid gave FB, GG' and AFK'ing. I think 15 minutes was a decent amount of time to let the game take shape, but the time restriction is certainly debatable.

    Leave a comment:

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