Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.



In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.



All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

Add a forfeit function

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ^@KingRaven: Besides that you're obviously unable to write my name correct and to create useful postings, you'd better stay calm and don't write anything if you don't have anything to say.
    I think everyone understood that you just don't like me.
    Or to say it in your language: STFU.
    Thank you.

    Originally posted by ForsakenBaken View Post
    you are shooting down a very valid argument/solution with a hypothetical.
    No, it's the other way around. Your hypothetical is that Valve will get the miracle to work.

    Originally posted by ForsakenBaken View Post
    can't predict dota-games? so we are just ignoring the whole field of study known as statistics? if a certain set of variables (once again... kd, heroes choosen, levels, items, money for buyback and so on) have resulted in a loss 99% (once again... don't get hung up on numbers, this is just an example) of the time then you can almost certainty say that when that set of variables come up again it will result in a loss again. so at that point in time the forfeit vote becomes available.
    Yes, we will ignore it as you won't have a 99% loss probability under all those circumstances. I guess the highest you can come up is 90% and even that would mean 1 win every 10 games or a W/L-Rate that it maybe wrong by 10%.
    In addition to that there are so many variables that it would probably be quite difficult to even find good ones (automaticly).
    If you think you can find a reasonable statistics, just start with it! I have enough replays saved and there are good replay parsers around. Just use them and you'll be fine. And then tell us the results.

    Comment


    • @typhox: once again... you are not the developer and should not worry about the implementation of the feature. we are here to discuss a much requested feature, not to decide what is or isn't possible for valve to do. since you provide no counter arguments to the system i suggested i gather that you agree that if valve can make it work like i suggested it would be a viable option? correct?

      Comment


      • Um, making a planet explode with your mind can be called a miracle... maybe. Implementing logic that would detect if a team is losing extremely badly so that forfeit feature can be enabled: totally within Valve's capabilities.

        Comment


        • Typhox, stop posting already in this topic, half of the post in this topic are from you, you can't win against the majority that want a FF.
          You already created 3 topic about this, lol.

          Comment


          • So if the majority says it is alright, it is really alright?
            Let's see how often the majority was wrong in history... 1933, uh I'm derailing this thread!

            Someone made a thread on playdota.
            Post here: http://www.playdota.com/forums/56386...ota-2-request/

            So we can close this thread...

            Comment


            • So, I'm here to write an essay and hopefully cover every aspect of this discussion:

              Resistance to 'Progressive' Change
              This exists in almost every progressive change in human society. My father refuses to get a cell phone, my grandmother refuses to acknowledge the internet. To bring about a more pertinent example: many Starcraft BW fans were against the improvements of the macroing system in Starcraft 2.

              This is more a psychology issue than anything.

              So what?
              As a UI designer I get to personally see this problem a lot. HoN and LoL were created (obviously) after DotA, in a response to DotA. As such, they had intentions of improving the lacking features of DotA. Some of which you can already find implemented in DotA 2 because they were successful solutions. Because it's assumably Valve's intention to make DotA 2 successful on a massive scale and not to only satisfy the nostalgic feelings of DotA players, they MUST consider all solutions offered beyond DotA. So I think that brings us to the question...

              Was the introduction of forefeiting successful in improving MOBA games' experience?
              It should be pretty obvious at this point, that this is a difficult question for Valve to answer given the split responses they receive from the community. I'm actually going to continue with the opinion that the answer is yes, the forfeit feature improved the experience and justify it through each point that has been brought up. In the end, this is not a black and white issue. There are points to be made against and for it.

              The Comeback
              Many people have brought up the idea that a forfeit system encourages a defeatist attitude and disallows the opportunity for an 'epic comeback'. I rather suggest that the epic comeback is reserved for those players who understand the game enough to recognize that possibility. This would actually put weight on the success of the matchmaking and ranking system. A team of five in a highly ranked game will be more resistant to forfeiting than a team of five people who are just learning the game. We have to agree that there are aspects of a DotA game that come with experience. From warding and denying to team hero composition. If you are knowledgable enough to understand when a game is not totally lost, then I have to assume you have the capability of making it to a ranking with players who also understand that. This doesn't mean that comebacks in lower rankings aren't possible. We can't assume that every game WILL end in a forfeit at those lower ranks.

              Trolling and Forfeit Spam
              Unfortunately, given that it is the internet and a game heavily reliant on your team, trolling will happen whether there is a forfeit system or not. I think this is actually a problem for RAP and not forfeit. How is players sitting in spawn or leaving the game any different than someone spamming "please cc"? You are still going to be playing 4v5. It will not encourage it any more or less to introduce forfeit. People who do not want to play, simply will not play.

              I was winning!...
              Some people have claimed that because they were crushing the other team and getting really farmed that they should have the opportunity to use the great items they earned for the fun of the game.
              You do have to consider the other side of this. The team being crushed is now committed to spending an hour of their day losing and dieing to satisfy someone who will eventually win? DotA is so reliant on your team that there is a good chance players on the losing team aren't deserving of that. Beyond that, this is a selfish and odd sentiment. Wouldn't it be more desirable to see those great items in a close and competitive game where the other team has items of their own and the will to win?

              Time Sink
              DotA games are long. Devoted fans have no problem with the time they waste losing a game, but to make this game welcoming to all gamers, the ability to move on from a losing game and play a new one is important for appeal. This is an issue that needs looking at devoid of elitism. Success will depend on mass appeal and time is certainly valuable.

              There are alternatives to allowing forfeiting
              There have been suggestions to alternatives to a forfeit system. All of which seem to lack a solution to games which are inevitable losses. Solving spawn farming is not a solution to a teams unanimous acceptance of a loss...

              Unanimous Acceptance of Loss
              What bothers me most about someone arguing against the feature, is that they are almost implying that they 'know better' than a team of players that are actually playing the game. When you have a unanimous decision of 5 people on a team it should then become clear, whether there is an opportunity for a comeback or not, that that team does not believe they can win and wish to accept the loss. The context should only really be up to the people playing it to deem if it's worth playing further or not.

              ---

              My very SIMPLE solution
              Create a filter on matchmaking where someone can choose to play with or without forfeit. You can even separate the rankings of those two types of games if you'd like. Unfortunately this does assume that the player base will be large enough to support two separate ranking systems (which I believe it will be).

              Any forfeit system implementation will not stand well without the support of a good RAP, MM, Ranking and Leaver system.


              P.s Comments like:
              hahha that's hilarious, majority is the dumbest way to do anything in game design, people dont know what's best for them and are generally retarded. Hence why 100% of all community designed heroes, have to be nerfed to shit and never see the light of day.
              are detrimental to any discussion because they offer no insight and undermine user feedback. User feedback is incredibly important to the design and development of a product.

              Comment


              • another oversaturated post that says what has already been said with an unrealistic 'solution'

                you guys need to stop pulling this 'unanimous surrender so they should be able to' argument.. unless you want the surrender function to be usable at ANY stage of the game, it's just invalid
                Last edited by vladhood; 11-09-2011, 01:37 PM.

                Comment


                • User feedback is extremely important for software development, but in the games industry you CAN NOT allow specifics to be determined by a community. for example, just because you get 50 million users saying, i want an "I WIN" button, doesn't mean that an "I WIN" button is a good idea. Most of these people dont know what's good for them. How many 12 year old kids do you know that got facerolled by riki for their first time, then screamed on every forum "NERF RIKI". Look at the WoW forums for example, its completely filled with beligerant bullshit "Nerf hunters, nerf rogues, nerf DKs...". You have to think about crowd mentality, 1 person is smart, small groups of under 300 can be brilliant, 10,000+ are fuckin retarded. Look at every riot in history, started by one person, and people just follow suit. Are you saying that because the community wanted to riot that it was a good idea? fuck no.

                  If valve was smart, they would implement all the other "required" features you listed RAP, MM, ranging leaver protection, afk protection, anti griefing, fountain immunity, bonuses for pushing towers faster and ending the game, and THEN after those are setup, collect data on how many people and how often people still want to cc.

                  Right now cc doesn't make sense without these systems in place.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by vladhood View Post
                    another oversaturated post that says what has already been said with an unrealistic 'solution'

                    you guys need to stop pulling this 'unanimous surrender so they should be able to' argument.. unless you want the surrender function to be usable at ANY stage of the game, it's just invalid
                    It's not invalid and I never make an argument that you should wait X minutes to vote on surrendering. 15 minutes in HoN appears to be a fairly arbitrary amount of time to people who weren't involved in testing and tweaking of the system.

                    Systems of forfeiting are being utilized in at least two successful MOBA games, whether you like it or not

                    The 'solution' I suggested was just an attempt to appease both crowds of opinion. It wasn't intended as a conclusion to my argument FOR a forfeit system. Please do not get that confused.

                    Comment


                    • We have a lot of people arguing for the sake of arguing. Don't bother Arctic.
                      Valve Damage Control Department Rep #16: Unpaid Employee
                      Shut up and buy a compendium
                      Have a complaint? File it here

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sterls View Post
                        User feedback is extremely important for software development, but in the games industry you CAN NOT allow specifics to be determined by a community. for example, just because you get 50 million users saying, i want an "I WIN" button, doesn't mean that an "I WIN" button is a good idea. Most of these people dont know what's good for them. How many 12 year old kids do you know that got facerolled by riki for their first time, then screamed on every forum "NERF RIKI". Look at the WoW forums for example, its completely filled with beligerant bullshit "Nerf hunters, nerf rogues, nerf DKs...". You have to think about crowd mentality, 1 person is smart, small groups of under 300 can be brilliant, 10,000+ are fuckin retarded. Look at every riot in history, started by one person, and people just follow suit. Are you saying that because the community wanted to riot that it was a good idea? fuck no.

                        If valve was smart, they would implement all the other "required" features you listed RAP, MM, ranging leaver protection, afk protection, anti griefing, fountain immunity, bonuses for pushing towers faster and ending the game, and THEN after those are setup, collect data on how many people and how often people still want to cc.

                        Right now cc doesn't make sense without these systems in place.
                        I don't personally see balance discussions (which can be useful imo) being the same as discussion of features on an unreleased product. There is certainly a reason one of the forum rules is "no balance discussion".

                        What I'm suggesting is that this system has been tested in very similar games with success. It's more synonymous with Auction Houses. Blizzard is implementing that feature to Diablo 3 based on success of that feature in similar games. (games that focus on economies)

                        I do agree all of those systems you mentioned need also be included and tweaked to support each other.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Arctic View Post
                          Systems of forfeiting are being utilized in at least two successful MOBA games, whether you like it or not
                          this isn't really an indication of anything (league of legends is the only MOBA game, but i know what you mean). of course people are going to use a 'give up' function when it's provided; that's never been questioned. it's the bane of this entire debate.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by vladhood View Post
                            this isn't really an indication of anything (league of legends is the only MOBA game, but i know what you mean). of course people are going to use a 'give up' function when it's provided; that's never been questioned. it's the bane of this entire debate.
                            I think if there is a way (maybe with RAP) to allow people to choose NOT to forfeit, then it shouldn't be a problem implementing it. That's why I stress the idea of unanimous agreement.

                            Comment


                            • splitting up the entire community right down the center isn't really a solution though

                              Comment


                              • The percentage of "games forfeited that otherwise could have been won" is not high enough to justify not having a concede option.

                                There are often stomp-games that end up with one side having twice as much gold, kills, and towers pushed AND having the stronger late game line-up. The only way games like that could be won, realistically, is if someone left on the enemy team. If they failed the first half of the game, how can it be expected for them to magically gain gosu skills and start changing the tides of battle like pros? If anything, people are just going to be complaining and screaming and dragging one another down further.

                                Originally posted by CvP
                                retards don't count as people.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X