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Add a forfeit function

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  • AlphaOfUrOmega
    replied
    Originally posted by BusBahnTasche View Post
    plz not. i have seen so much games which would have ffed and still won in the end. just dont add a ff
    I don't understand this argument. So you don't like ff because your own judgement is poor enough that you would ff games that you could win?

    When people vote ff, it's because they no longer care about winning; a ff is a guaranteed loss, of course. FF votes are solely done to promote having fun instead of suffering, which, in a video game, should always be the number 1 goal.

    Telling people that they shouldn't have ff is like telling them that they have a bad judgement of what fun is. That's such a condescending statement it hurts for me to think about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Typhox
    replied
    Originally posted by V13 View Post
    and as soon as you drag yourself out of scrub tiers and start playing >1750 games, teams view the concede feature as a way of ending a game that's already over, not saving themselves Smackdowns and frustration.
    You may be right, but take into consideration that this criteria does not apply for the majority of players.
    I myself started playing DotA in February last year, and although I play ~4 games per day, I'm still not at 1750 games.
    I don't have a problem with concede for leagues, clans, etc although it makes kinda look a clan bad in my eyes if it is unable to handle losses.

    Leave a comment:


  • BusBahnTasche
    replied
    plz not. i have seen so much games which would have ffed and still won in the end. just dont add a ff

    Leave a comment:


  • Bugball
    replied
    Originally posted by V13 View Post
    More ridiculous crap. Teams win from 2 rax down in HoN against other mediocre teams all the time. Having a concede feature wouldn't have stopped you from doing that. I won a game the other day that I ran 0 16 18 as Furion and my team was belted to a wall the whole game - but I never even considered it unwinnable or worthy of conceding, because I'm not an idiot, and I knew that I could out push them until the cows came home. Guess what - no HoN team would have conceded it either because we had them critically outdrafted, and our strategy was a lot better than theirs' - it just also happened to involve a hardcore gank disadvantage early-mid and midgame, but with superior pushing, stalling and carry mechanisms that they couldn't counter. Conversely, I had a game the other day in HoN where at one point I was 21 2 15 on Nomad, but ended up being outcarried by a Flint who finished 6 15 15 - the teams were remarkably similarly drafted (Magebane, Slither, Elec, Flint, nebulous support vs Nomad, Glac, Ra, Midas, FA), and we went 2 rax up at one point - but amazingly they didn't concede, because having a concede function doesn't stop you from having a comeback, and as soon as you drag yourself out of scrub tiers and start playing >1750 games, teams view the concede feature as a way of ending a game that's already over, not saving themselves Smackdowns and frustration. Having a concede function doesn't force anyone to end the game early if they can win it, and having the concede function doesn't instill any kind of defeatist frenchy, white flag, mentality.

    Arguing that DotA 2 should "Be like DotA 1 and not have a concede feature" only proves that you are accustomed to scrub tier matches and have never played IH or league matches, since this feature was replicated in every serious medium to high level DotA community. This entire thread is consistantly derailed by people spouting pure assertion founded on very poor premises with no analysis of different concede function models, and who generally have no experience with how the function actually works. I've also noticed a definite inverse relationship between English skills and wanting a concede function, and while not really wanting to go there, this is replicated in HoN where the stubborn Pinoy/BR has traditionally been the one tdowning the concede while the other team's Devourer hooks you out of the fountain while waiting for the Megas to take out the Shrine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1WeaG5et_U) - maybe it's a cultural thing. IDK.

    inb4 more anecdotes consisting of "I won a game that we were at a substantial disadvantage in and if you want a CC function gb2hon because HoN is for rage quitters."
    Quote for eyeopener.

    +2000

    Leave a comment:


  • MasterfulWizard
    replied
    Originally posted by Techno_Mage View Post
    i basically would say the same thing as Alpha, the misery of being killed horribly for 10 games doesn't outweigh the positive feeling from that 1 big comeback. The only reason to add even a time limit on surrendering is to stop farming of loses(lower rating) and stop people from doing something like 1st minute roshan and if found they just give up and play again cuz they want to only play with an advantage. If all 5 people want to give up, they should be able to as if none of them care about winning that match anymore why make them try
    You have to remember that even with the forfeit option players will sit in the fountain or feed the enemies in an attempt to force the vote.

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  • Techno_Mage
    replied
    i basically would say the same thing as Alpha, the misery of being killed horribly for 10 games doesn't outweigh the positive feeling from that 1 big comeback. The only reason to add even a time limit on surrendering is to stop farming of loses(lower rating) and stop people from doing something like 1st minute roshan and if found they just give up and play again cuz they want to only play with an advantage. If all 5 people want to give up, they should be able to as if none of them care about winning that match anymore why make them try

    Leave a comment:


  • AlphaOfUrOmega
    replied
    Originally posted by DBX_5 View Post
    Should there be a concede/Forfeit? yes, it is definitely needed but valve needs to address the major issues with these functions;
    1. Players abusing it to get out of games quicker even though the other team -deserves- the win and the right to end the game properly (eg long game one team finally gets an advantage).
    2. Players giving up because of the score or because one player is not doing that good even though they may still have the ability to win.
    I don't think you realize that the majority of players' primary goal is to have fun. At some point, the game will be miserable enough that they will be willing to give up the option of victory in order to try to have fun again, in a different game.
    So it doesn't matter if they could still potentially win. Fun comes first over a victory screen.

    Originally posted by DBX_5 View Post
    Now I think a lot of players dont really understand what the concede or forfeit function is really for, most would say its just for ending the game when its been lost or its simply a faster way to end the game so players can get in a new game quicker, but, this is not what its for the concede/forfeit function is an option that was added to high level competitive games so players who of similar skill will acknowledge a game is clearly over and to proceed with the game further is simply a waste of time.

    ...

    in the earlier days when games actually lasted 50 minutes on average a lot of players would end games long before the game had been decided some cases I saw all towers still up and the score being as equal as 25-25 and one team would forfeit just because they could, this is what I fear will happen if players are given the ability to choose when to end the game...
    Players know exactly how to use the concede function: to minimize suffering and try to start having fun again. People are obsessed about conceding potentially causing these conceding players wins. They are fully aware that by conceding, they can't win, and they don't care. They just want to start having fun again.

    Saying that conceding costing people wins is such a ridiculous 'argument'. Yes, it's true, but it doesn't matter at all for 5-man concede votes.


    Originally posted by DBX_5 View Post
    Short Version

    The game should determine when someone can concede or forfeit because its fair and unbiased and the only way to have it where it wont be abused.
    I completely agree. If something like a 20-kill deficit is required, it'll lead to people suiciding. Having an unbiased indication, such as the game clock being past 30 minutes, cannot be abused.

    Leave a comment:


  • DBX_5
    replied
    Should there be a concede/Forfeit? yes, it is definitely needed but valve needs to address the major issues with these functions;
    1. Players abusing it to get out of games quicker even though the other team -deserves- the win and the right to end the game properly (eg long game one team finally gets an advantage).
    2. Players giving up because of the score or because one player is not doing that good even though they may still have the ability to win.


    The real question is -when- is it actually okay to call the game over and going beyond a certain point is simply prolonging thus ruining the game for the other team because they are being basically "tortured" I can tell you all from the years of experience in both playing this game and moderating a large community (Clan TDA) that players at a low to average some times even above average skill level are not able to make that decision wisely.

    Things like feeders and other little issues such as delay etc can make even some of the better players in this game to just want to rage quit because the game is going to shit due of something thats out of their control, but, if their team still can win should it be ended immediately because of that issue?, hard to say some times yes and some times no, again it comes down to the fact that players a lot of that time cannot really make that decision without bias in some way or another so how does valve solve this problem?

    Well I have suggested this before and ill do it again the game/client/server should determine when a game is "truly" over, players simply cannot make this decision at lower skill levels because they/we dont follow any real rules even now the only -real- rule is to not leave and people still do this regardless of the consequence's and I can ensure you that if players have the ability to choose when to forfeit or concede a game that games will get ruined but if theres a unknown preset (potentially ever changing) and dynamic system that will make this decision for all the players in the game then it will be fair without out bias and be purely based on statistics.

    Now I think a lot of players dont really understand what the concede or forfeit function is really for, most would say its just for ending the game when its been lost or its simply a faster way to end the game so players can get in a new game quicker, but, this is not what its for the concede/forfeit function is an option that was added to high level competitive games so players who of similar skill will acknowledge a game is clearly over and to proceed with the game further is simply a waste of time.

    By that I mean the game has already progressed to a specific period where a team now has a "land sliding advantage" and chances of the game being turn around are -extremely- unlikely while the game could continue it will take several more minutes to end via pushing towers etc and while they could play this out the end game has already been decided more or less and wasting another 10 minutes ending is not worth the time.

    Most players who have had a concede function or a forfeit function use it in a completely different way generally they use it about 5 minutes before the game ends or the -moment- the time is right;

    example

    In TDA you could ff after 50 minutes with a team of 5, at 30 minutes if you had a leaver on your team, and at 15 minutes if the leaver occurred before 15 minutes in and the team voted to end before 15 minutes.

    in the earlier days when games actually lasted 50 minutes on average a lot of players would end games long before the game had been decided some cases I saw all towers still up and the score being as equal as 25-25 and one team would forfeit just because they could, this is what I fear will happen if players are given the ability to choose when to end the game a lot of the time the system will simply be abused when ever players are given the ability to do it only part of the time will it actually be used the way it should be because players dont want to stay in games that they are losing or not having fun in and if they are given the ability to choose when to leave they will -always- take it.

    Short Version

    The game should determine when someone can concede or forfeit because its fair and unbiased and the only way to have it where it wont be abused.
    Last edited by DBX_5; 01-19-2012, 08:33 AM.

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  • roflcat1234
    replied
    Concede for normal non-ranked games

    No concede for ranked MM/ELO games

    I don't see why this is such a difficult topic, unranked games are for fun, when one team decides they are no longer having fun, should they not have the right to stop playing that match?

    Leave a comment:


  • Foxt
    replied
    At least 5-man queue games should have some kind of concede option. I don't care that much about solo or custom games, but it would be nice.

    I can understand the point of some people saying that you can always have a comeback, and this is true, but that doesn't mean you can have a comeback in any game. The point of the game, is not to win, is to have fun. Of course, you have fun winning, but I fail to find any amusement in having to wait 10, 20 even 30 minutes for a game to finish, because you CAN'T have a comeback, since the other team simply have too much advantage. That's where a concede option is needed.

    The same point but expressed in other words, is that concede is a defeatist feature, etc. I agree. In HoN there was a lot of people who would have terrible farm, died a few times, or for whatever reason, passing the 15 minute mark he only would spam concede and probably not participating in the game anymore. This should be avoided.

    So in short, my suggestions for concede are:

    - Have the option available once certain conditions have been reached (i.e. xp/gold/kills/towers/rax/etc. disadvantage). Enabling concede only because 15 minutes have passed, is plain and dumb.
    - The option should be silent and toggle-able. For instance, you could have an UI button that you activate, if you are willing to concede. You team shouldn't know this. You should be able to toggle the concede anytime, in case you have a succesful fight/gank/roshan kill/whatever, and you feel that the game is winnable again.
    - Once all 5 people in the team have their concede button activated, the game ends, giving a win to the other team.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrician
    replied
    Originally posted by Degen View Post
    Ok so a summary of the thread (for and against).

    For concede:
    - Prevents fountain farming.
    - Saves time
    - Lets you play more games
    - Most people want it

    Against concede:
    - I MADE AN PUSH ONCE AN WON AND THEREFORE NO CONCEDE!!11
    ^this!

    I ll add - Against concede:
    -We didnt give up and we won 1 ruined game!...But we lost another 100 games and 12hours by AFK.

    P.S. Should be 4\5 FF. 1 player can push this button once per 3-5 min.

    Leave a comment:


  • Silverxb
    replied
    Sometimes there is a big gap in picks and player skill, for example, if it's been 15 mins and the results are 20 kills for one team and only 3 for the other. what's the point of continuing such a game? it's just frustrating and a waste of time.

    Therefore I suggest a forfeit possibility when the death ration exeeds 3:1 for either team after a certain time or limit, like 10 or 15 mins or after 15 kills for the better team.

    Also, it doesn't have to be agreed on with all 5 because there will always be a retard game ruiner, so it should be possible with 4/5 people.

    Leave a comment:


  • slowreflex
    replied
    As I said before, the key is a consequence to forfeiting. Whether it's making them wait x min before starting a new game or something else, it keeps this under control.

    Leave a comment:


  • ggPeti
    replied
    Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
    Nothing new, same old "discussion" and insults and nobody bothers to read the thread cause everything that has been said was already mentioned on the first 20 pages. I'll leave the thread open for a little longer but expect me to close it sooner than later again.
    Actually even though I asked you to open it, now I agree after seeing how little reaction my arguments got. At least AlphaOfUrOmega bothered reading and understading what I wrote, and I'm thankful for that, but I must admit that this thread doesn't seem to achieve anything after all.

    (Well, at least the new ff-thread count seemed to drop in the last few days.)

    Leave a comment:


  • MysteryG
    replied
    Plenty of input on this topic, but the game needs a function like this.

    Had a game yesterday with two people who had thrown in the towel around the 15 min mark for whatever reason - instead of leaving or AFK'ing they simply ran repeatedly into the other team, didn't fight back, and one of the heroes (Tiny) kept throwing the remaining players into bad situations. Very frustrating for the people that do want to play it out, but it's upsetting that a loss decided at 15 mins, lasted and dragged on for another 15-30 mins because the other team dragged their feet killing us. Wasted my time, and was absolutely not fun in the least.

    TLDR: People are jerks; add the forfeit/concede/surrender function.

    Leave a comment:

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