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Add a forfeit function

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  • #46
    Originally posted by BLABLAFU View Post
    As a lot of people have said already, forfeit has good aswell as bad aspects to it.

    In HoN, a lot of players constantly call Concede votes after 15 Minutes, often times resulting in a ~20 minute concede, while the game wasn't even close to being over.
    Yes but 5 people agreed that the game was over by 20 minutes. They wont look back saying we could have won that game, they will join a new one and try again. In a Competetive scene people dont stick around when they think they lost, they say gg and leaves. Its the same with Sc2, Wc3 or any esports game that isent based on rounds.

    Comment


    • #47
      If you're going to have leaver protection, making a whole team sit around while they wait for people to push in is silly.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by YawningAngel View Post
        If you're going to have leaver protection, making a whole team sit around while they wait for people to push in is silly.
        This.

        If your team doesn't want to play anymore they will afk or leave. With or without a forfeit option.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by alienufo View Post
          One other thing I hate about a forfeit feature is that it ruins games for the winning team. Part of the fun of dota imo is getting big items and dominating. Yeah, getting stomped isn't fun either, but its a balance imo.
          I don't think it makes sense to activate it after a certain difference in kills or gold because like others mentioned, would cause feeding etc.
          I think that comment about the winning team is very important. It sucks to farm all your game just to see your enemies disconnect or FF. I also think that adding an FF option will remove one of the best moments on Dota: turn arounds. Of course there are people who will only use when it is completely dominated, but I'm sure that many will just cry and call FF as soon as a huge team battle happens and they all die.

          What about using that "gold graph" as a tool to promote turn arounds? Imagine if every 1 gold for a team's carrier would equal X points, carriers and gankers would have something like X-2, towers killed/alive will grant points and Rax too. What am I trying to create here? A system where if your team has MUCH less points FF will be available, BUT if you don't FF and instead you win, there will be some kind of different victory. Think about not having only "victory/losses", but one extra called "Epic victory" (just an example). *only usable if after 25 minutes or something like that*
          What changes? The main change is that if you have some heroes like techies that would inspire your team to defend, seeing that an "alternate victory" would be of high 'value'(if I know human beings...).
          I would like to know different opinions on this, since I don't like FF and I LOVE to defend, so my 'ideia' that sounds good to me may be garbage to you guys. Thanks


          ps: They could even implement some kind of "stomp victory", in cases where no one quits before winning team has X value on points. But I'm not sure if that is a good thing for the game.

          psĀ²: What about "RRing" games that were won that way? I'm not sure how replay works, but having an recent "epic victory" replay highlighted (and visible to everyone) would cause people not to FF that fast and without reason.
          Last edited by Ad.Infinitum; 09-29-2011, 08:51 AM.

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          • #50
            Read only the bold parts in the text-wall below if you don't want to waste time!



            I think we are missing quite a lot of things in this discussion. The aim of implementing a feature always needs to be to make the game better. Carelessly adding a -ff command without proper evaluation might have negative drawbacks which people neglect right now so we need to find out how we can improve existing systems (dotalicious, dota-league, RGC), simply copying is not good enough and ignores the problems those systems have.

            What a forfeit function is supposed to achieve is ending the game when one party most likely can not win the game anymore to avoid fountain camping, artificially prolonging games, stat-whoring and to prevent "wasting time" . Basically very simple and something which should naturally be in Dota. That's why individual clients and leagues have come up with their own rules (just like they always did). From observation and experience however we know about symptoms which can/might occur:

            - forfeit spam: this can result in anger, frustration and flaming and it's also incredibly annoying to deal with
            - One player does not want forfeit and forces the other guys to keep playing when they don't want to anymore. Sometimes that 1 guy is right, frequently he isn't. That's when people start calling for kick votes which might be even more annyoing.
            - Defeatist attitude:
            Dota is a game of 5 individuals, especially in unorganized games. Having a bad game can EASILY give you, as an individual, an extremely negative impression of the game while other lanes might be doing fine or an allied carry might get pretty damn good farm. The player/s with a bad game however will very frequently and quickly call for a forfeit vote which might result in frictions with the players in the team who are doing well. This further reduces your chances to turn around the game because the atmosphere within a team is an incredibly important element in Dota. Having the forfeit option frequently results in people giving up WAY too early and often people, new players in particular, are not even capable of judging if you still have a chance or not.
            A forfeit function encourages people to give up, that's actually a really dangerous trend.
            - anti-climactic ending:
            One of the biggest thrills you can get out of a game like Dota is achieving victory in a close and exciting game. Apart from defeatist attitude reducing the likeliness of such an ending people often feel "robbed" of their victory when enemies simply forfeit out of the blue after having lost a fight or two.

            Obviously there should be a -forfeit command but how can we avoid the negative implications which exist without a shadow of a doubt? Adding a time limit, usually 20 or 30 minutes, is a common and easy restriction but that fails to truly address the issues.

            And imo the answer is that the game should tell you when forfeiting is a reasonable choice. It would be a dynamic process, theoretically you could forfeit at minute 24 but after a small comeback fight you might not be able to forfeit at minute 32 because the situation in the game has somehow changed from "rather hopeless" to "we might still have a chance". You all know that games develop like that, you ALL have experienced the feeling of such a comeback.

            But how to do that? How could the game possibly tell us when to forfeit? Kills, towers, raxes, that alone obviously isn't any good to decide something like that. In order to understand the situation I suggest reading the first 3 chapters from the article below but it basically boils down to that the outcome of a game is primarily depending on the difference of income between the two teams (check the gold graph when observing games).
            http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/blogs...the-dota-genre


            Suggestion: You can only forfeit a game after xx minutes (25) and you can only forfeit if the discrepancy of income is bigger than xx% (35% - 40%), requires 4 votes. The exact value would require heavy testing and LOTS of sample games (which is what the beta is for) but what this basically does is that the game tells the teams when one team is so far behind that it is unlikely that they will come back, but not impossible. It prevents people from giving up too early, it can remove the ability to forfeit when you shouldn't anymore, it removes potential annoyance issues and it could even be more rewarding.

            Possible issues:
            - good early game and farming heroes are naturally at an advantage now when it comes to overall income (minor issue imo)
            - A team gets destroyed but has farm on an individual powerful hero who is doing well which "could" turn the game around to a certain degree. This would buy time for the others to catch up again, this player is at a severe disadvantage and teams might forfeit when the pressure still is on the dominating team or when they still have a chance due to an individual performance (more important issue). This could be dealt with if we make the 1 person who has disproportionally more gold than anybody else on his team mandatory to be a requirement for a forfeit.

            PS: Remember games like nv.cn versus Mineski, I have seen too many games in beta which have turned despite something like a 15k income disadvantage.
            Last edited by Chairraider; 09-29-2011, 10:56 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              I'd also like to add that people are saying that those who think the game is over leave or dc anyways - well, in general that only holds true when it's clear the game is over. Most people stick around until a couple of their raxes have dropped and the situation isn't going to improve. From the games that I have played, most people stick around after a rax goes down, or after a 15 minute beyond godlike or after the enemy team who has a big advantage take Roshan. If the forfeit feature was only limited by time, most of these situations would never come to be and the game would be forfeited far too soon.

              Also, depending on how it is implemented (I am fine with it if it was like Chairraider's system) - 5/5 should be the way to go with forfeits. 4/5 means 6 players, a majority, suddenly have to stop playing a game they were still enjoying because the minority of players wanted to quit.

              Comment


              • #52
                1. Back in the DotA version 5.xx days, games literally took 10 minutes to load.
                2. When you do well in DotA, and the opponents leave, its not as fun to kill non-human/afk heroes.

                These are the two silly reasons a 'forfeit' feature is shunned by some people.

                In Starcraft, it is actually bad mannered to continue playing the game after it is considered fully over. Maybe its time to accept that most competitive games have a forfeit function, and that forfeit is not such a bad thing.

                In tennis, when it is the best of 5 sets, and one player wins 3 straight sets, do they play out the other two sets?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
                  Read only the bold parts in the text-wall below if you don't want to waste time!



                  I think we are missing quite a lot of things in this discussion. The aim of implementing a feature always needs to be to make the game better. Carelessly adding a -ff command without proper evaluation might have negative drawbacks which people neglect right now so we need to find out how we can improve existing systems (dotalicious, dota-league, RGC), simply copying is not good enough and ignores the problems those systems have.

                  What a forfeit function is supposed to achieve is ending the game when one party most likely can not win the game anymore to avoid fountain camping, artificially prolonging games, stat-whoring and to prevent "wasting time" . Basically very simple and something which should naturally be in Dota. That's why individual clients and leagues have come up with their own rules (just like they always did). From observation and experience however we know about symptoms which can/might occur:

                  - forfeit spam: this can result in anger, frustration and flaming and it's also incredibly annoying to deal with
                  - One player does not want forfeit and forces the other guys to keep playing when they don't want to anymore. Sometimes that 1 guy is right, frequently he isn't. That's when people start calling for kick votes which might be even more annyoing.
                  - Defeatist attitude:
                  Dota is a game of 5 individuals, especially in unorganized games. Having a bad game can EASILY give you, as an individual, an extremely negative impression of the game while other lanes might be doing fine or an allied carry might get pretty damn good farm. The player/s with a bad game however will very frequently and quickly call for a forfeit vote which might result in frictions with the players in the team who are doing well. This further reduces your chances to turn around the game because the atmosphere within a team is an incredibly important element in Dota. Having the forfeit option frequently results in people giving up WAY too early and often people, new players in particular, are not even capable of judging if you still have a chance or not.
                  A forfeit function encourages people to give up, that's actually a really dangerous trend.
                  - anti-climactic ending:
                  One of the biggest thrills you can get out of a game like Dota is achieving victory in a close and exciting game. Apart from defeatist attitude reducing the likeliness of such an ending people often feel "robbed" of their victory when enemies simply forfeit out of the blue after having lost a fight or two.

                  Obviously there should be a -forfeit command but how can we avoid the negative implications which exist without a shadow of a doubt? Adding a time limit, usually 20 or 30 minutes, is a common and easy restriction but that fails to truly address the issues.

                  And imo the answer is that the game should tell you when forfeiting is a reasonable choice. It would be a dynamic process, theoretically you could forfeit at minute 24 but after a small comeback fight you might not be able to forfeit at minute 32 because the situation in the game has somehow changed from "rather hopeless" to "we might still have a chance". You all know that games develop like that, you ALL have experienced the feeling of such a comeback.

                  But how to do that? How could the game possibly tell us when to forfeit? Kills, towers, raxes, that alone obviously isn't any good to decide something like that. In order to understand the situation I suggest reading the first 3 chapters from the article below but it basically boils down to that the outcome of a game is primarily depending on the difference of income between the two teams (check the gold graph when observing games).
                  http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/blogs...the-dota-genre


                  Suggestion: You can only forfeit a game after xx minutes (25) and you can only forfeit if the discrepancy of income is bigger than xx% (35% - 40%), requires 4 votes. The exact value would require heavy testing and LOTS of sample games (which is what the beta is for) but what this basically does is that the game tells the teams when one team is so far behind that it is unlikely that they will come back, but not impossible. It prevents people from giving up too early, it can remove the ability to forfeit when you shouldn't anymore, it removes potential annoyance issues and it could even be more rewarding.

                  Possible issues:
                  - good early game and farming heroes are naturally at an advantage now when it comes to overall income (minor issue imo)
                  - A team gets destroyed but has farm on an individual powerful hero who is doing well which "could" turn the game around to a certain degree. This would buy time for the others to catch up again, this player is at a severe disadvantage and teams might forfeit when the pressure still is on the dominating team or when they still have a chance due to an individual performance (more important issue). This could be dealt with if we make the 1 person who has disproportionally more gold than anybody else on his team mandatory to be a requirement for a forfeit.

                  PS: Remember games like nv.cn versus Mineski, I have seen too many games in beta which have turned despite something like a 15k income disadvantage.
                  thanks for this post. You described all the problems I have with a standard forfeit option AND proposed some interesting solutions to them. I would actually really like a FF system like you described. It seems complicated, but I really think it has to be.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Your improvements sound awesome.. But in some way it seems REALLY hard to execute it like that (from the coding etc).

                    Well, in my opinion this also depends on how they will deal with leavers/afkers. If leavers won't get punished for leaving they will leave instead of forfeiting. If they can't forfeit with 4/5 they will afk in the well.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
                      PS: Remember games like nv.cn versus Mineski, I have seen too many games in beta which have turned despite something like a 15k income disadvantage.
                      Agree with you. Also, keep in mind that income difference is not everything. You can only turn back a game with huge income disadvantage only if your team did not get killed a lot. On the other hand, a team with CM/Puck/Lion/Pugna/lich can lose despite of huge income advantage + kill advantage if they keep dragging the game.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        btw, we will have system where people from matchmaking will be put inside a game with leaver...right? that will have to be taken into account too.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by PandaSucks View Post
                          Your improvements sound awesome.. But in some way it seems REALLY hard to execute it like that (from the coding etc).
                          Even if it were complicated, which I doubt it is, for the player it's really super easy, you'd get a message that you can forfeit from now on and a message when you can no longer forfeit. Done. Could even be done via a small button in the HUD like glyph which is deactivated until you can forfeit, once it gets enabled you click on it and it turns green, you could "un"forfeit anytime aswell of course.

                          Originally posted by PandaSucks View Post
                          Well, in my opinion this also depends on how they will deal with leavers/afkers. If leavers won't get punished for leaving they will leave instead of forfeiting. If they can't forfeit with 4/5 they will afk in the well.
                          Dealing with leavers/afkers in general is a different topic, what matters in regard to the forfeit function is how to deal with forfeiting when you have a player less on the team. Basically I think it still follows the same rules and I don't think an adjustment is necessary. Once it's 3vs5 you should probably be allowed to forfeit whenever you want to though.
                          Last edited by Chairraider; 09-29-2011, 01:03 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
                            Even if it were complicated, which I doubt it is, for the player it's really super easy, you'd get a message that you can forfeit from now on and a message when you can no longer forfeit. Done. Could even be done via a small button like glyph.
                            It sounds hard to get the game to know in which certain situation you are allowed to forfeit.
                            To be honest, the game could live without a forfeit option. When I got completly stomped the game was over pretty fast. Without forfeiting.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by PandaSucks View Post
                              It sounds hard to get the game to know in which certain situation you are allowed to forfeit.
                              To be honest, the game could live without a forfeit option. When I got completly stomped the game was over pretty fast. Without forfeiting.
                              The Dota community has always been good at identfying stuff the game itself lacks. Whether it were stats, leavers, ihl, banlists, reconnect, matchmaking, all those issues were identified and dealt with as good as possible. If there is a widely accepted and implemented feature which the game itself lacks this tells us that there is the need and desire to have that feature and there is NO reason not to have it in the game when the players want it as long as it can be done without harming the game.

                              And again, I think my suggestion is not particularly complicated, neither for the game and certainly not for players.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
                                The Dota community has always been good at identfying stuff the game itself lacks. Whether it were stats, leavers, ihl, banlists, reconnect, matchmaking, all those issues were identified and dealt with as good as possible. If there is a widely accepted and implemented feature which the game itself lacks this tells us that there is the need and desire to have that feature and there is NO reason not to have it in the game when the players want it as long as it can be done without harming the game.

                                And again, I think my suggestion is not particularly complicated, neither for the game and certainly not for players.
                                Did you see how a forfeit option turned out for HoN? A lot of people went there since they didn't want to stay with DotA, and they will come back for Dota2. It is horrible there. You got people afking because someone doesn't want to forfeit, you get your people that afk before the 15 minute mark (that's when you are able to forfeit there), even if the game isn't even over yet... It resulted in so many griefers/leavers.

                                And I don't see this being different in Dota2.

                                Comment

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