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Add a forfeit function

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  • V13.
    maybe it is worth introducing concede option for people at high level play.

    However, In large majority of recent games that we played, when our team was horribly losing we just asked push and game ends in less than 3 min, no need for concede option.

    "Finally, don't bring up that defeatist shit. "

    Why do you think defeatist is invalid argument. This is the only reason why fraction of the community doesn't want concede, it breeds bad habbits.
    Last edited by Mishac; 01-16-2012, 07:23 AM.

    Comment


    • Breeds bad habits?

      Only people who hadn't played with a CC function in reasonable level games would say that. Bads will be bads will be bads, whether they have a concede function or not. HoN pubs, even at a trash level where concede spam happens, (1500-1700 level) are of a vastly higher higher level than average DotA pubs. Don't get me wrong, DotA scrim is much better than HoN scrim, and high level play is comparable between the two, but arguing that a Concede function has an impact on a player base's skill levels is ridiculous, because it's an aspect of the metagame (in the actual sense of the word) - ie. it doesn't actually impact on the way you play the game in a real game (ie. not pubstomping on smurfs).

      If you'd played with a CC function at a reasonable to high level of play (1750-1950) you'd know that the CC's come out when the game can't be won, not when it isn't likely to be won, based on rational analysis of the game state. High level players can do that, because even developers in this genre accept that there's a substantial window between the time a team gets an advantage that can't be degraded without lots of huge mistakes, and the time they actually end the game.

      And if you want to argue that DotA players are some inherrently godlike version of HoN players, I'd point to the HoN players who have smoothly transitioned into comp level DotA play, like dirgesnoopy and Trixxy, as well as the players who did the reverse, like Loda, and the players who played both in the intervening period like Kurok. Not having a concede function does not teach players to play better any more than having compulsory voting forces people to understand the political system; forcing players to stay in decided games does not foster any skills or decision making abilities, it just demonstrates what a massive overmatch looks like. No habits are formed either, because no player wants to be put in a position where a concede is the most appealing option any more than a player wants to lose a game, which is essentially what conceding is, minus the drawn out stage where a team needs to cement its advantage.

      Edit: Unless you're arguing that players should be forced to suffer as a result of playing badly and this will provide a greater incentive to play better earlier, which I'll grant is true, but I'm not so sure people get put into a concede position as a result of not trying hard enough for fear of punishment. That would be the weakness of that argument.
      Last edited by V13; 01-16-2012, 07:53 AM.

      Comment


      • On the other hand, when there's no forfeit option, players are forced to play it through, which can be nice.
        I hon people will cc in 15 min because they suck so hard, and they suck even more in dota 2, so if there was a cc option they'd give up more easily.
        Id rather have an option to kick a player who clearly isn't gonna benefit the team, like a 40 min yasha mirana or the usual afk'er blaming everyone else.
        I've played with 2 people so far that clearly have NO life whatsoever, flaming 24/7 while they have no clue themselves, being able to kick them would be nice, and they should get a disadvantage like the one for leaving a game

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        • This forum is not an accurate representation of the DotA player base. The large majority of players aren't seeking to go pro, or even improve. They just want to sit down and relax for an hour by playing a video game.

          Who are you, random person on the internet, to tell 5 individuals when they cannot stop playing a game, who's sole purpose is to provide entertainment? If 5 people decide they aren't having fun, they should be allowed to stop playing a game, a game for god's sakes.

          People need to stop thinking that all that DotA players care about is W/L, K/D, and improving. The majority of players don't, they care about having fun.
          Change has kept DotA alive, evolving, and improving since 2002. And now DotA has an entire new engine at it's disposal, with infinite new capabilities.

          So why are there so many DotA fundamentalists/conservatives that oppose new features, options, and information?

          Embrace the change.

          Comment


          • Just no forfeit, it will bring a lot of very awful situations like when two or three players sit in the fountain and say: "Forfeit or i no play."

            If you want to leave early just do it. You will play with the guys who think the same way you do. They want to leave when they see they can't win anymore.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ValeN View Post
              Just no forfeit, it will bring a lot of very awful situations like when two or three players sit in the fountain and say: "Forfeit or i no play."

              If you want to leave early just do it. You will play with the guys who think the same way you do. They want to leave when they see they can't win anymore.
              Are you joking, or just retarded: They already do that. AFK in fountain and encourage the other team to push.

              Bads will be bads will be bads, and players will give up. These two things already occur. Adding a concede function doesn't encourage this behaviour, it just limits the damage it can do to other players.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ValeN View Post
                Just no forfeit, it will bring a lot of very awful situations like when two or three players sit in the fountain and say: "Forfeit or i no play."

                If you want to leave early just do it. You will play with the guys who think the same way you do. They want to leave when they see they can't win anymore.
                The same thing already happens, half my losses involve people AFK'ing in the fountain. I don't think adding FF is going to change that. If anything, now some of those games can end sooner and I don't have to play pointless 4v5's and 3v5's for another 20 minutes.

                HoN has a FF function, and my experience there involved much fewer fountain AFKers, despite the godawful community that's so obsessed with K/D.

                It's not good to think in hypotheticals anyway. The great thing about a beta is that a FF function can be tested for a month, and if reports of abuse skyrocket then it can be removed before official release.
                Change has kept DotA alive, evolving, and improving since 2002. And now DotA has an entire new engine at it's disposal, with infinite new capabilities.

                So why are there so many DotA fundamentalists/conservatives that oppose new features, options, and information?

                Embrace the change.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by AlphaOfUrOmega View Post
                  This forum is not an accurate representation of the DotA player base. The large majority of players aren't seeking to go pro, or even improve. They just want to sit down and relax for an hour by playing a video game.

                  Who are you, random person on the internet, to tell 5 individuals when they cannot stop playing a game, who's sole purpose is to provide entertainment? If 5 people decide they aren't having fun, they should be allowed to stop playing a game, a game for god's sakes.

                  People need to stop thinking that all that DotA players care about is W/L, K/D, and improving. The majority of players don't, they care about having fun.
                  Problem is, it's another 5 people's game. It's not a game of solitaire to just stop when you feel like it, starting a game needs a certain level of commitment in Dota. And it's not even the issue here. When 5 people agree, they can leave and call it a day, no repercussions. But what if it's only 4 people? Or 3? If you give them the ability to vote, they get upset when they find out that even though they are the majority of the team, they can't force through their decision. A voting system is an illusion of fairness, it creates trouble unless it's a simple majority vote, which is unacceptable in case of forfeiting.

                  Comment


                  • You're still assuming a system that isn't blind.

                    A blind vote ensures that players can't be targetted. Worst case scenario, 4 vote for, 1 against, the 1 just pretends he voted for and he's not ostracised for it. If the four then decide to AFK in fountain, nothing is lost, since they would have done it anyway. Best case result of the above, the blind vote fails, and the players play on, assuming more people voted against it than did.

                    You're also assuming an FF function is given to everyone, which I don't think is the best course of action, since the ability to decide whether the game is unwinnable or not is tied to player skill. Giving it to people who can't accurately judge the state of the game is silly.

                    Comment


                    • please guys stop calling each other retarded here, I'd like this thread to stay open.

                      Comment


                      • in my opinion, they should do global playerbase surveys on some of these suggestions that are heavy with conflict, they should let all of the beta testers vote on

                        a: enemy mana bars? yes or no
                        b: add forfeit/concede yes or no
                        c: split europe in eu west/eu east yes or no

                        if valve did this, no one could cry about it (the one way or the other) because everyone in the beta was able to vote on it.

                        Comment


                        • im 100% sure, that after beta a concede/ff function will be implemented.

                          otherwise me (and i suppose a lot of other players) would not touch this game. --> less profit for valve

                          first some dota oldfags will cry about it, then get used to it and shut up. the rest will be happy. --> profit for all

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AlphaOfUrOmega View Post
                            This forum is not an accurate representation of the DotA player base. The large majority of players aren't seeking to go pro, or even improve. They just want to sit down and relax for an hour by playing a video game. [...] People need to stop thinking that all that DotA players care about is W/L, K/D, and improving. The majority of players don't, they care about having fun.
                            This. So this.

                            I like the idea of a totally silent concede. What if, after 15 minutes, a player can check a box saying "I concede". If all members of the team have done this (or 4/5 by 30/40 minutes), then the game is over as a loss. There is NO WAY to tell if anyone else on the team has conceded, and who, no calling for votes, etc, etc.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by V13 View Post
                              A blind vote ensures that players can't be targetted. Worst case scenario, 4 vote for, 1 against, the 1 just pretends he voted for and he's not ostracised for it. If the four then decide to AFK in fountain, nothing is lost, since they would have done it anyway. Best case result of the above, the blind vote fails, and the players play on, assuming more people voted against it than did.
                              I don't even think there should be a time when the vote is "called for". It should be entirely silent; each player decides on their own if they want to concede.
                              Last edited by fraserofthenight; 01-16-2012, 09:33 AM.

                              Comment


                              • @Alpha and V13

                                That is exactly the problem i'm trying to point.

                                By adding forfeit you are actually fueling that kind of behaviour that i am sure most of us find to be anti-game. Those guys should be in the leaver's pool but are they?

                                It's not like they will suddenly respect that a teammate want to play until the end. They will still AFK if someone doesn't pass the forfeit.

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