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Add a forfeit function

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  • #61
    Well if i play the game and i have the opinon the game is over, then i wont play anymore. Ofc there will be turnarounds but how often can this happen? not very much and especially on pub games, where people dont care as much as in high lvl games so this argument doesnt stand. And still i cant see an good argument for the not implementing the FF option. You cant exploit it, how you can see in HON, it just makes it easier, where is the problem??


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mimic View Post
      Well if i play the game and i have the opinon the game is over, then i wont play anymore. Ofc there will be turnarounds but how often can this happen? not very much and especially on pub games, where people dont care as much as in high lvl games so this argument doesnt stand. And still i cant see an good argument for the not implementing the FF option. You cant exploit it, how you can see in HON, it just makes it easier, where is the problem??
      "You can't exploit it"

      How long did you play HoN for? You get people crying in nearly every game, afking in the fountain, feeding on purpose or just throwing the game.
      One of the most used sentences is probably "stfu me afk"

      Edit: People are even getting kicked for not ffing there.
      Last edited by PandaSucks; 09-29-2011, 02:26 PM.


      • #63
        I played hon for about one year i think and why should people afking from the start? i dont get it? sure i had a lot of games where we conceded after minute 15 but without a FF either i would leave before minute 15 or i would be afk untill the enemy would destroy my throne so where is the purpose on wasting time her? i dont get it...


        • #64
          I actually quite like Chairraider's suggestion (possibly with a bit of tweaking), one really positive aspect is that it promotes a non-defeatist attitude. This is because, until a team is given the option to forfeit they will believe that they still have a chance and will likely continue trying hard. The only downside that I can foresee is that people will use the forfeit option as soon as it becomes available, but I can't really see this being a major problem if they really are that unlikely to win anyway.

          For all the hardcore anti-forfeit people I imagine it wouldn't be particularly hard to implement an option called "No Forfeit" that you could specify in public/matchmaking games that would allow you to create/find games in which forfeiting is not an option.


          • #65
            Great post Chair.
            Some of the issues you mention also involve the fact that in Dota1 you can always see who have forfeited and who haven't. We should consider making it invisible for the team so they wont be negatively affected by it and so you can't spam that one guy who haven't forfeited, because you don't know how many have forfeited.
            At the same time, should it be visible to the enemy? I'd love some sense of victory when the enemy forfeit instead of a screen suddenly appear, "you won". I believe you could get that if the enemies forfeit with some kind of soundeffect. It will encourage the team when some of the enemies forfeit and might give them the confidence to push for the ancient.
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            • #66
              Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
              Read only the bold parts in the text-wall below if you don't want to waste time!

              I think we are missing quite a lot of things in this discussion. The aim of implementing a feature always needs to be to make the game better. Carelessly adding a -ff command without proper evaluation might have negative drawbacks which people neglect right now so we need to find out how we can improve existing systems (dotalicious, dota-league, RGC), simply copying is not good enough and ignores the problems those systems have.

              What a forfeit function is supposed to achieve is ending the game when one party most likely can not win the game anymore to avoid fountain camping, artificially prolonging games, stat-whoring and to prevent "wasting time" . Basically very simple and something which should naturally be in Dota. That's why individual clients and leagues have come up with their own rules (just like they always did). From observation and experience however we know about symptoms which can/might occur:

              - forfeit spam: this can result in anger, frustration and flaming and it's also incredibly annoying to deal with
              - One player does not want forfeit and forces the other guys to keep playing when they don't want to anymore. Sometimes that 1 guy is right, frequently he isn't. That's when people start calling for kick votes which might be even more annyoing.
              - Defeatist attitude:
              Dota is a game of 5 individuals, especially in unorganized games. Having a bad game can EASILY give you, as an individual, an extremely negative impression of the game while other lanes might be doing fine or an allied carry might get pretty damn good farm. The player/s with a bad game however will very frequently and quickly call for a forfeit vote which might result in frictions with the players in the team who are doing well. This further reduces your chances to turn around the game because the atmosphere within a team is an incredibly important element in Dota. Having the forfeit option frequently results in people giving up WAY too early and often people, new players in particular, are not even capable of judging if you still have a chance or not.
              A forfeit function encourages people to give up, that's actually a really dangerous trend.
              - anti-climactic ending:
              One of the biggest thrills you can get out of a game like Dota is achieving victory in a close and exciting game. Apart from defeatist attitude reducing the likeliness of such an ending people often feel "robbed" of their victory when enemies simply forfeit out of the blue after having lost a fight or two.

              Obviously there should be a -forfeit command but how can we avoid the negative implications which exist without a shadow of a doubt? Adding a time limit, usually 20 or 30 minutes, is a common and easy restriction but that fails to truly address the issues.

              And imo the answer is that the game should tell you when forfeiting is a reasonable choice. It would be a dynamic process, theoretically you could forfeit at minute 24 but after a small comeback fight you might not be able to forfeit at minute 32 because the situation in the game has somehow changed from "rather hopeless" to "we might still have a chance". You all know that games develop like that, you ALL have experienced the feeling of such a comeback.

              But how to do that? How could the game possibly tell us when to forfeit? Kills, towers, raxes, that alone obviously isn't any good to decide something like that. In order to understand the situation I suggest reading the first 3 chapters from the article below but it basically boils down to that the outcome of a game is primarily depending on the difference of income between the two teams (check the gold graph when observing games).

              Suggestion: You can only forfeit a game after xx minutes (25) and you can only forfeit if the discrepancy of income is bigger than xx% (35% - 40%), requires 4 votes. The exact value would require heavy testing and LOTS of sample games (which is what the beta is for) but what this basically does is that the game tells the teams when one team is so far behind that it is unlikely that they will come back, but not impossible. It prevents people from giving up too early, it can remove the ability to forfeit when you shouldn't anymore, it removes potential annoyance issues and it could even be more rewarding.

              Possible issues:
              - good early game and farming heroes are naturally at an advantage now when it comes to overall income (minor issue imo)
              - A team gets destroyed but has farm on an individual powerful hero who is doing well which "could" turn the game around to a certain degree. This would buy time for the others to catch up again, this player is at a severe disadvantage and teams might forfeit when the pressure still is on the dominating team or when they still have a chance due to an individual performance (more important issue). This could be dealt with if we make the 1 person who has disproportionally more gold than anybody else on his team mandatory to be a requirement for a forfeit.

              PS: Remember games like versus Mineski, I have seen too many games in beta which have turned despite something like a 15k income disadvantage.
              I think it's better to have static rules and not dynamic. If the game chooses when you are able to forfeit, then it will become more incentive for the team to actually forfeit, therefore adding to the defeatist attitude conundrum.


              • #67
                My only problem with FF is that only 5% of the community knows how to gauge how far apart teams actually are, thus I've seen a ridiculous amount of people trying to forfeit when they are only slightly behind or even in a favorable position. Chair's post makes a lot of good points, I'd like to play with the formula a bit but I'm worried people will try to FF and then realize they can't, so they'll try to get more behind just so they can FF.

                This would annoy me to no end, almost as much as everytime a player asks if he can FF when the teams are deadlocked and he's too stupid to realize it.


                • #68
                  Another thing to take into account is that without a forfeit feature, or if it has system based limitations like two rax down or whatever, the team that is pwning, will just not push, they will go sit in the forest and wait for your team to come out. or they will jsut farm and farm up divine rapiers and kill roshan over and over without pushing. and when you have 2 or 3 people afk in fountain because they can't leave, the other team could EASILY push and end the game without any worry of people defending, but they dont, they farm and make you wait even longer.

                  This is why you need a forfeit feature, and if someone doesn't downvote a forfeit feature, and they are in fountain ( not busy juking or chasing someone ) their vote needs to be automatically yes. So that if they afk in the fountain, without DCing, the people who ARE still playing can decide to forfeit.


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Dota2Cast View Post
                    yeah, but thats not the fault of the forfeit feature, its a completely different problem that doesn't really change with or without a surrender vote.
                    It does because people would try longer.
                    At least put a timer on it so people can't use the forfeit-function until 20-25 minutes into the game and if the gold difference is above *whatever you consider unlikely for a comeback* (possibly abusable since you could check if the other team is that far ahead by trying to vote)
                    Last edited by Cymen; 09-29-2011, 10:15 PM.


                    • #70
                      Thumbs up.

                      Make it a 30 minute concede instead of the 15 minute concede in HoN and we'll get the best of both worlds.


                      • #71
                        A nice side effect of forfeit command could be less leavers, they are quite a pain at the moment (due to people who usually don't ragequit having an option now).
                        !ff is without a doubt working very well on DotAlicious (!ff possible after 20 minutes), I see no reason not to bring it back to Dota 2.
                        Last edited by mr.ioes; 09-30-2011, 02:47 AM.


                        • #72
                          I think Dota 2 need a FF function.. so +1


                          • #73
                            It's definitely come to be an expected mechanic, with alternate Dota leagues implementing it and its presence in newer titles such as Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends. A lot of the problems for me stem from the rampant leavers in the beta. Unless there are other planned mechanics such as the thing where a player can choose to take the place of someone on your team who left, I can't rationalize there not being a forfeit mechanic.


                            • #74
                              Im afraid I am going to have to agree with Chairs idea it makes perfect sense however it needs more restrictions to allow for the FF chance to not show up in till the last possible second, also allowing the server to also take over all damage a team can do might be another data value that may help.
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                              • #75
                                No... This is absurd. Or atleast not for the first 30 minutes (or when you're down a rax or something). At this time and point (not counting ragers) I've actually played lost games to the full extent - Enjoyed them and actually made a comeback in one. Had the forfeit function been there it would've been conceded at or around 20 minutes. No thankyou.