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Add a forfeit function

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  • #91
    Originally posted by BASH View Post
    That's the exception, not the rule.

    Plus DotA is a teamgame, so you will often find yourself playing with mates and friends which should support your votes.
    Yes but one doesn't always want to play with a team of 5, sometimes playing alone in pickup can be fun

    Comment


    • #92
      I don't think it is a good idea.
      In HoN, people start spamming the concede vote after losing a big team fight. There is ALWAYS a reason to keep playing imo, a game is never truely lost.
      I have seen so many unbelievable throws (2 barracks lead thrown away etc etc) that prove that there is always a reason to keep going.
      SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION. DAMNIT.

      Comment


      • #93
        I also think that this would cause more problems in team psychology and momentum than it would solve in time. A Dota 2 game isn't lost until your throne is dead, even when your Lina goes 0-12, is 15 levels behind everyone else, refuses to ward, refuses to stay in the back in team fights and dies in 3 hits from the enemy team's carry.

        Today, I saw it happen. Our team pulled through and we won.

        A forfeit option will just poison people's minds even more in terms of confidence and how easy it is to give-up and start over. That's bullshit; this isn't a game that you should be able to just press pause and restart because the first 15 minutes go poorly. That eventually made queuing by yourself in Heroes of Newerth horrible. What do you think the people that disconnect + abandon after dying twice in five minutes are thinking? They learned to give up so easily.

        Ever since getting Dota 2 beta, I have had so many poor early games on either side (with team mates that I felt weren't skilled enough to win the game) transform into great and close fights midgame and lategame. If you're getting outplayed hard and it's a matchmaking problem, it won't be there when the game is released. You learn from your mistakes. You don't learn from winning easily and forfeiting when the going gets tough. That's not DotA. And it shouldn't be.

        People are already way too arrogant, verbally abusive and obnoxious as it is and we're talking about people who have the option to leave + abandon games with zero penalty. Imagine how volatile it'll be when the option to actually give up as a decision of team consensus will be there, where a bad game will need to end as fast as possible so they can start over and get a win going on their stats.
        Last edited by vladhood; 10-03-2011, 12:19 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by vladhood View Post
          I also think that this would cause more problems in team psychology and momentum than it would solve in time. A Dota 2 game isn't lost until your throne is dead, even when your Lina goes 0-12, is 15 levels behind everyone else, refuses to ward, stay in the back in team fights and dies in 3 hits from the enemy team's carry.

          Today, I saw it happen.

          A forfeit option will just poison people's minds even more in terms of confidence and how easy it is to give-up and start over. That's bullshit; this isn't a game that you should be able to just press pause and restart because the first 15 minutes go poorly. That eventually made queuing by yourself in Heroes of Newerth horrible. What do you think the people that disconnect + abandon after dying twice in five minutes are thinking? They learned to give up so easily.

          Ever since getting Dota 2 beta, I have had so many poor early games on either side transform into great and close fights midgame and lategame. If you're getting outplayed hard and it's a matchmaking problem, it won't be there when the game is released. You learn from your mistakes. You don't learn from winning easily and forfeiting when the going gets tough. That's not DotA. And it shouldn't be.

          Axe this dumb suggestion. People are already way too arrogant, verbally abusive and obnoxious as it is and we're talking about people who have the option to leave + abandon games with zero penalty. Imagine how volatile it'll be when the option to actually GIVE UP as a decision of team consensus will be there.
          ^^ this ^^

          Comment


          • #95
            I dont like forfeit too, but most players will quit the game ( if no leavers penality ) or sit on fountain till the enemy end if they arent able to forfeit.
            To solve this problem first we need an anti-leaver, than we need no stats like K/D/A etc ( or keep them private ) other than your matchmaking ELO.. so all will keep trying to win without being scared to " add more death on the stats ".

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Mataur View Post
              Yes but one doesn't always want to play with a team of 5, sometimes playing alone in pickup can be fun
              There isn't only "alone" and "five man stack", you know.

              You continue to describe exceptions, not the rule. In most cases the team with a significant lead wins.

              People saying "in HoN people are just spamming cc" are probably the ones causing the votes (by sucking) or just throwing in random pieces to express their dislike of HoN and/or the CC-function. I've been playing HoN since the early closed beta (one of the first 16k user to even register) and don't share your experience. More annoying than CC-spams are people refusing to vote just to maintain their KD or to troll/grief.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by BASH View Post
                There isn't only "alone" and "five man stack", you know.

                You continue to describe exceptions, not the rule. In most cases the team with a significant lead wins.

                People saying "in HoN people are just spamming cc" are probably the ones causing the votes (by sucking) or just throwing in random pieces to express their dislike of HoN and/or the CC-function. I've been playing HoN since the early closed beta (one of the first 16k user to even register) and don't share your experience. More annoying than CC-spams are people refusing to vote just to maintain their KD or to troll/grief.
                I was there too, except one of the first 2k. What's the difference? It has nothing to do with the points being brought up. That has factually affected player attitudes in Heroes of Newerth, and you are probably not an exception. I quit playing Heroes of Newerth consistently a year ago; I've had time to flush the mindset out and look at Dota 2 from a pretty clean slate. I could probably join and record a Heroes of Newerth game right now and accurately predict how people will be acting fifteen minutes in when someone on their team is 0-3.

                'In most cases' is a fill-in term. It means nothing. It's something you type on wikipedia without punishment because you don't need to cite it. It's a generalization and you might as well have put a random percentage in there because it means just as much. If you can't approach the subject with anecdotal evidence, then you don't need to participate. This isn't a court of law; the game needs to be built around the reality that there's more to the game than getting fed three times in five minutes. How could you even bring up the assumption that having a lead decides the winner. Why doesn't the game just end right there, then? What is the point of a game continuing past the 15 minute mark if both teams aren't completely even? You've never done well with your team in a game and lost it in the end? You've never done poorly as a team in a game and somehow pulled through at the end?

                To me, it sounds like anyone that doesn't forfeit when you deem it necessary is doing it because they want to keep their stats afloat or to piss you off (?). How about, people still feel they have a chance to win? I know in HoN, especially now, snowballing is a lot more severe than it ever was, but Dota 2 is different. It really, really is. That's why it's unbelievably frustrating when people rage quit early on. Partly because they're so selfish and stupid and partly because they really don't understand how the game is supposed to be played.

                'In most cases' with me, games go either way. Every aspect of the game is different and as time goes on, the dynamic is ever changing. What about pub teams that have the synergy that would be perfect in late game (teams based on initiating, dpsing outside of and winning with Chronosphere) but need to constantly climb uphill amidst ganks, warding and negatively traded team fights to get there?
                Last edited by vladhood; 10-03-2011, 01:07 PM.

                Comment


                • #98
                  vladhood, you do need to keep in mind that once you do put in Leaver Protection the following will happen:

                  - People will afk at fountain to avoid a leaver count.

                  At that point, all you're doing is wasting the winning team's time, the people who have given up's time and quite probably everyone else. Adding a forfeit ensures that you don't have to AFK at a fountain when you feel the game isn't winnable or once most of your team has given up. Why should players be forced to continue playing a match they no longer wish to? I'd really like an answer to this question.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by vladhood View Post
                    'In most cases' with me, games go either way. Every aspect of the game is different and as time goes on, the dynamic is ever changing. What about pub teams that have the synergy that would be perfect in late game (teams based on initiating, dpsing outside of and winning with Chronosphere) but need to constantly climb uphill amidst ganks, warding and negatively traded team fights to get there?
                    Agreed, I actually concede when I don't see any chances of coming back in the game, but on like 9 games out of 10, people just don't even try...


                    Originally posted by BASH View Post
                    There isn't only "alone" and "five man stack", you know.

                    You continue to describe exceptions, not the rule. In most cases the team with a significant lead wins.

                    People saying "in HoN people are just spamming cc" are probably the ones causing the votes (by sucking) or just throwing in random pieces to express their dislike of HoN and/or the CC-function. I've been playing HoN since the early closed beta (one of the first 16k user to even register) and don't share your experience. More annoying than CC-spams are people refusing to vote just to maintain their KD or to troll/grief.
                    I was in the early beta too, that doesn't mean I was any better than a guy who arrived just 2 days ago and already knows the game... don't compare years of play it's like saying "I HAVE THE BIGGEST" (where did I hear that...?)

                    Most people in HoN want one sided matches where they only win, when they see they are losing the edge they don't even try to make a comeback, it's like they lost ANY COMPETITIVENESS it's not even just for competitive plays, even in pub people are like "meh... another lose... 4 minutes in game middle gave firstblood... cc at 15 gg"
                    WTF?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chrys View Post
                      vladhood, you do need to keep in mind that once you do put in Leaver Protection the following will happen:

                      - People will afk at fountain to avoid a leaver count.

                      At that point, all you're doing is wasting the winning team's time, the people who have given up's time and quite probably everyone else. Adding a forfeit ensures that you don't have to AFK at a fountain when you feel the game isn't winnable or once most of your team has given up. Why should players be forced to continue playing a match they no longer wish to? I'd really like an answer to this question.
                      When you invest in playing a match of DotA, you're not there for just yourself. Is that even seriously a question? Why should other parts of the team have to stop playing or have to suffer negatively because one person has self esteem issues?

                      Nobody should be forced to play a match they don't want to. Leave the game. Take the penalty. If you don't want the penalty, then play the game out, because it's a team game and if you're going to lose, it should be a team decision.

                      Please provide an argument to me why someone should have the priviledge of playing with other people as a single entity, with the option to completely opt out whenever they feel like it with zero repreccusions?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by vladhood View Post
                        Please provide an argument to me why someone should have the priviledge of playing with other people as a single entity, with the option to completely opt out whenever they feel like it with zero repreccusions?
                        That wasn't my point. When the majority of a team decides that the game is lost they should be able to forfeit the match and move on. Why should they forced to be fountain farmed?

                        Comment


                        • It's obviously an issue of outlook; you want to be able to give up when things are looking to grim and others want to fight until the bitter end. This topic will come up much more as time goes on and only the developers will be making the final call; you aren't going to convince me because I simply see a losing game as a way to improve and comeback. You see it differently, and that's that.

                          As for the situation you mention, that isn't fair to the other team, either. They work hard to outplay the other team not to reap the fruits of the labour? What the hell is the point of that?

                          Why don't we just have a system that bases the most likely outcome of a match based on the average ELO ratings of each team and the synergy of their teams against each other to reach a predetermined outcome? That way, teams that feel like they're outpicked don't have to be forced to play a game they feel like they're going to lose.

                          Comment


                          • I don't like trusting the user to determine when the game is over because the vast majority have no clue.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by vladhood View Post
                              It's obviously an issue of outlook; you want to be able to give up when things are looking to grim and others want to fight until the bitter end. This topic will come up much more as time goes on and only the developers will be making the final call; you aren't going to convince me because I simply see a losing game as a way to improve and comeback. You see it differently, and that's that.

                              As for the situation you mention, that isn't fair to the other team, either. They work hard to outplay the other team not to reap the fruits of the labour? What the hell is the point of that?
                              Bolded part is a baseless assumption and irrelevant to the discussion.

                              As for the second part, when did Fountain farming become the goal of the game? I want to win, I don't care if I get to farm my opponents for kills in the fountain or not. I just care about the win. What the hell is the point in fountain farming? All you're doing is wasting time you could be spending destroying the throne, getting into another game and working hard towards another win.

                              [Satire]It's obviously an issue of outlook; you want to be able to farm players in their fountain while they don't get to have fun while others want to win the game.[/satire]

                              EDIT:

                              Originally posted by Dan View Post
                              I don't like trusting the user to determine when the game is over because the vast majority have no clue.
                              Why should the majority in a team be forced to continue to play a game they think is lost? If they truly think they can't win, let them forfeit.

                              Comment


                              • This is a must.

                                However, don't forget that if this is implemented(vote) players will fight over forfeiting or not.
                                www.dotaiki.com

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