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Enemy Mana Bars

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  • #31
    Mana needs to not be displayed when you click the hero, or it should be in mana bars. There's no point in having the information available, but only if you jump through meaningless hoops. Health/mana bars have already diverged significantly from wc3 with the notches and ally mana bars, there's no reason to not include manabars except for the impact they will have on the game

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    • #32
      Originally posted by blaow View Post
      there's no reason to not include manabars except for the impact they will have on the game
      (bolded for emphasis) I'm pretty sure thats exactly what we are concerned about, and discussing. The impact is not insignificant.

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      • #33
        Right, if the concern is that manabars will significantly change gameplay, you should not be able to see mana by clicking on a hero

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        • #34
          I understand both sides of the argument, but do we necessarily have to make heroes do something so unintuitive as clicking on the enemy heroes to see their mana, just because warcraft was limited in this regard? Evolution is important, but its good to debate the balance issues that may arise as well.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by blaow View Post
            Right, if the concern is that manabars will significantly change gameplay, you should not be able to see mana by clicking on a hero
            It doesn't work like that at all. If enemy manabars make for worse gameplay than the current system and removing mana via clicking creates worse gameplay than the current system, then we should stay with the current system. Think about runes, few people like that they spawn on a random side of the river, but we lack a good solution. We haven't punted runes out the window in the meantime, we've kept them for the sake of their gameplay being the lesser evil. Same thing here -- gameplay is important and we don't get to sideline it.

            Note that we have the capability of officially endorsing mana bars for everyone on the WC3 engine. This is not a new topic. If we want to arbitrarily gut the system for the sake of design theory, we can go do it right now in WC3.

            ---

            edit: Point being, I'm not saying if any of the three current ideas (enemy bars, no mana info even on click, or current system) is the best for gameplay. But until people start discussing what the changes will seriously do to the game, not just design theory of whats intuitive, this thread is about as productive as posting on 4chan.
            Last edited by Otter; 09-19-2011, 03:41 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by blaow View Post
              Right, if the concern is that manabars will significantly change gameplay, you should not be able to see mana by clicking on a hero
              except that ALSO affects gameplay significantly (even more so than adding mana bars). Thats removing a feature thats been there for years. Its a lot different than adding a new one as heroes have already been designed with that in mind (all types of mana burns, obsidian destroyer's orb, etc)

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              • #37
                I don't want to impact gameplay, but I would rather fix this usability issue instead of leaving it in such a silly state just because thats the way things are
                Last edited by blaow; 09-19-2011, 03:30 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by blaow View Post
                  Mana needs to not be displayed when you click the hero, or it should be in mana bars. There's no point in having the information available, but only if you jump through meaningless hoops.
                  This.

                  You get to know enemy's mana if you can manage to select him super fast..if this is not a meaningless hoop..what is?

                  Why do we have ally mana bars then? if you manage to select your ally super fast, you get to know his mana pool (esp during ganks).
                  Seems pretty inconsistent.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ganked View Post
                    This is definitely on topic, and I'd like to point out coaches in other games (like Halo Reach). In Reach, the coach will keep track of the power weapons spawns, power up spawns, etc - this is equal to rune spawns, cooldowns, and roshan. What the coach I'm sure doesn't keep track of (and if he does it would be EXREMELY hard) is the number of bullets in say the rocket launcher or sniper. This can directly correlate to dota, as the coach may not be able to say "hey that guy only has 1 shot with the sniper you can kill him faster then he can hit you and switch weapons", same as "hey he only has 200 mana he can only cast one spell".

                    I don't think that displaying information like mana amount would be beneficial in cases like that, as there are plenty of other factors to consider like regen, and items (bottle/stick).
                    I think there's a key difference between these two games (at least from what I understand of Halo Reach, which I'm admittedly unfamiliar with). Halo is an FPS, the best players are the twitchy guys with the raw-gameplay skill that's off the charts. The coaches can be the guys who would never succeed at playing the game personally, but know the strategy behind it. Similar to American football, where the coaches are the middle-aged dudes with beer bellies that wouldn't stand ten seconds on the line of scrimmage. DotA is an RTS variant, it's a strategy game with fast-action elements, it rewards both playskill and strategy. There are both players that are valued for their strategic mindset and players that are valued for their skilled gameplay. I don't want to marginalize the strategists in a strategy game, I don't want to see the smartest players getting kicked off teams in favor of a lineup of five guys with raw skill and shit map awareness.

                    If we are going to have 1.6m+ USD tournaments firing every year, I'd bet that's whats going to happen. When you're playing for that kind of money, throwing your team's brilliant strategist with imperfect gameplay to the sidelines to tell you that shit from over your shoulder instead is the right call. I don't think that's true to the spirit of what DotA is as a game.

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                    • #40
                      I'm not trying to argue the coach being there or not, my point is, there are hidden pieces of information for a reason. You're supposed to be scared when someone has a sniper rile, not know he only has one bullet making the fact that he has the sniper moot. Just like when a hero comes around the corner to gank you, your not supposed to immediately know if he has mana or not. You assume he does because hes coming to kill you, just like you would assume someone has 4 bullets in the sniper when he's holding it. Part of the strategy of games is knowing the unknown, or remembering the events. Hey I had a ward in the neuts and saw this hero stun, so I know its down if he comes and ganks, or I know he doesn't have enough mana now. It's part of learning the intricacies of the game and separates the good players from the bad players. It's a measure of skill and I don't like removing clear measurement of skill just because some people don't want to be bothered by and easy action like clicking on a hero.

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                      • #41
                        Health bars were added for last hitting pretty much as it was tedious selecting ever single creep.

                        There's only ~10 heroes and their mana is less variable then their health anyway.

                        Its not the same as health, so stop bringing it up.

                        We might as well have bars indicating their attack damage, armor, buffs, and move speed if we're going to show mana. Where does it end?
                        At health.

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                        • #42
                          We have 3 options as i see it. Keep it as it is now, show manabars, hide all manainfo. If we change they way it works, it will have some consequences. This is how i think it will affect the gameplay.

                          Show manabars:
                          You will not gain more information, but get the information easier accessible. The main difference is that you will be able to know the enemy mana on times where you didn't have time to earlier, as in hectic fights or when you are fleeing or w/e. This info is accessible already, but only the best are fast enough to get this info by doing this extra effort. If we add manabars, anyone can see the mana in these situations. Its one of those elements that divide the good players and the very best. Dota is so unique and loved because of its depth in skill level, and if we add manabars we will reduce some of its depth. It will be a minor change, but still noticeable. LoL have done alot of stuff to make the game easier for new players and reducing the steep learning curve, but it has also reduced the depth of the game's skill level. It was suggested to add manabars for new players, which i think would help overcome the steep learning curve.

                          No mana information:
                          If we have no information about mana at all, you can only guess. Mana changes so much all the time, so its close to impossible to give a correct estimate. Heroes that use manaburn will be indirectly nerfed, because they might burn heroes with no mana and AM have a hard time knowing if its worth using his ulti. The game will definitely be harder to play, because you will have to know all the heroes manapool by heart, how much mana they approximately used, how much mana they gained again by bottle/manaboots/etc. It will be close to impossible to estimate, and will make the gamer harder and the learning curve unnecessarily steeper.
                          Steam: bQttger

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                          • #43
                            No problems with showing enemy bars but for that we need to have a proper poll in the PD forums.

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                            • #44
                              I've already noticed the less need to communicate with my clanmates after this manabar update. Everytime i was going for a gank id ask about mana situation on their line. They would check both theirs and enemies' for the gank to be successful. I'm currently against enemy manabars for lessing, as bQttger said, the game skill-depth. Even against teammates manabars for riping away part of the communication needed in the team. I'd like only the self mana bar.

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                              • #45
                                I was in the middle of typing several paragraphs explaining my reasoning, but instead of finishing that I will give a tl;dr lol

                                Basically, I feel like once a person is making the logical step in worrying about his opponents mana in any given situation throughout the game and taking it into account in his process of decision making, he is already making the leap to clicking the hero and thus it is not adding as much of a skill gap as some would suggest.

                                As far as people selecting enemy heroes during hectic group fights constantly to monitor mana levels, I would love to watch a player perspective replay of a top player where this is true. I believe most people can keep track of it just by knowing what hero they are and the amount of spells they have cast during the fight, determining their mana level from that and the level they are/items they have, etc.

                                Pretty long for a tl;dr lol

                                I feel like if we're going to make this argument for enemy mana bars, we should do the same with how we've hindered communication skills and left out many good communicators who excelled at sharing their mana levels prior to ganks by showing allied bars (this is obviously a very long stretch of the imagination :P).
                                Last edited by Kanadian; 09-28-2011, 02:01 PM.

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