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Enemy Mana Bars

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  • #46
    I see no good reason not to do this; someone's health and mana are important information that significantly affect decision making, most other things are not. Without wishing to pick on Dan, the exact values of someone's armour or movespeed don't really matter very much, whereas knowing whether or not they have mana to, say, TP/ult is massive.

    Comment


    • #47
      My reason for leaving mana bars out, and i would actually vote for removing them from clicking an enemy too actually, is the element of mental games it introduces to the game. Makes it a little bit more of a poker game, where a lina who is completely out of mana, might bluff having enough for her full combo in certain situations that if they knew she was out they might chase, but since they dont know they might back off.
      If you were playing poker, and someone was betting on having a full house, and you only have trip-7's, you take a gamble that they actually have what it takes. Where's the sportsmanship if you can just reach over the table, grab the guys cards, take a look and say, HAHA you have 2,7 off-suit with nothing showing on the river...

      Take for example, you're playing VS and you have morphling with you and you're walking in your jungle, you'r both about 2/3rd life, and around lvl 6-8... you suddenly run into a sven - lina combo but have no idea how much mana they have. Any support on your team is pushing the far lane and their tps are on cooldown. if you could see that they were both full mana, you would absolutely get the fuck out of there because if you can't kill either of them ( lina has less life ) before your first initial stun wears off (if you manage to land your stun before they do ) its pretty much guaranteed that one of you is going to die. If you could see mana bars and you saw they were both at below half mana, you might stay and fight, might get lucky and trade a death with vs for a kill for morphling. or you might even be pro at dodging stuns and get a double tap anyway, or if you saw they were both completely out of mana, fuck ya you'd chase, send them back to base to heal, or get some kills. If they knew you knew that they had no mana they would run immediately too.
      BUT, if you had no idea how much mana they had, you might run you might not, you might gamble on the fact that lina has been farming the lane with her combo and doesn't have enough for her ult. You might be right, you might not, and SHE ALSO knows that you aren't exactly sure how much mana she has. she very well might be out of mana, but because you dont know that, she might bluff, and charge you with nothing, making you turn and run. while really shes saying to herself holy shit, i'm so glad they didn't chase me cause i woulda been fucked.

      It adds to the excitement of the game, leaving it in the unknown, making everything less calculated like (hmm, he has a max hp of 875 at lvl 4, and blah blah armor, and i do x damage, so i can absolutely 100% be positive that my combo WILL kill him).

      Comment


      • #48
        I don't like this idea at all; leave them out. It's an integral part of lane mind games. You're not always free to click on an enemy hero when you're constantly worried about positioning, last hitting, denying and staring at the mini map.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by YawningAngel View Post
          I see no good reason not to do this; someone's health and mana are important information that significantly affect decision making, most other things are not. Without wishing to pick on Dan, the exact values of someone's armour or movespeed don't really matter very much, whereas knowing whether or not they have mana to, say, TP/ult is massive.
          Armour matters a lot

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          • #50
            True, but you can estimate armour - it's a fairly static quantity outside of major item pickups, so it's not going to change hugely in between encounters with them in the way that mana does.

            Comment


            • #51
              I am firmly against this.

              I'll create an analogy with SC. When playing SC you could figure out a general strength of the opponent's army by scouting. You could only figure out what you have scouted. Sure you can get a feel, but that's something you do after playing the game a lot. The fog of war plays a large part here in the information war that goes on between the two players.

              The units that one chooses to produce though is what makes the difference in games, aside from familiarity and micro/macro (but we dont have macro here). Not scouting properly, and not having the familiarity when dealing with certain builds/army compositions should mean that you lose. I feel that this should be the same for DotA. There should be no reason to reveal the capabilities/capacity of enemy heroes. The HP bar is more than enough information at most times to figure out the strength of the hero. The other modifiers (armor, magic resistance, mana, damage items, other items) are things that a player should become antiquated with after playing against certain builds. By revealing mana in the use of mana bars, by giving players more information they become more capable of deciding on a method of approach without having built up that familiarity with the opponents' hero yet.

              Another issue is that what if we let mana bars through? What's to stop the idea of having more information about enemy heroes revealed? Stuff like items can be shown through various visual effects each time it is equipped, the same goes for armor, even MS. I just feel that we approach a very slippery slope whenever we decide that bits of information should be revealed to the players instead of them acquiring the mastery to deal with it on their own.

              My two cents since most of the core testers have weighed on in this so far. After all we're playing poker here, why should I let you know what cards I am holding? Maybe I'm bluffing you about what I have, maybe I'm not. That's part of the game, and you should use your experience and familiarity of players/heroes to figure that out.
              Last edited by ArcheKleine; 09-28-2011, 06:48 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by ArcheKleine View Post
                After all we're playing poker here, why should I let you know what cards I am holding? Maybe I'm bluffing you about what I have, maybe I'm not. That's part of the game, and you should use your experience and familiarity of players/heroes to figure that out.
                The argument is that you don't wanna let me know your cards but just by asking the dealer (clicking on your hero), I can know your cards (view your mana).
                So either give mana bars or take away current mana view option (only show max mana pool). Does that make sense?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by CvP View Post
                  The argument is that you don't wanna let me know your cards but just by asking the dealer (clicking on your hero), I can know your cards (view your mana).
                  So either give mana bars or take away current mana view option (only show max mana pool). Does that make sense?
                  yes, you're making sense, its an interesting idea having mana not viewable by clicking, and honestly i'd be interested in testing it for like a month, and seeing peoples feedback then without this information.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    those are not the only 2 options. The 3rd option is the way it is now, which is fine. Other two bring in too many gameplay implications, and NO mana indication is much worse than having enemy mana bars.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I am firmly against this.
                      +1

                      Why? Because it removes some possibilities and mindgames, and that is something to be avoided. Imagine yourself teleport or running to help an ally in need, what are his chasers going to do when they see you? It will vary, but even if your mana pool is depleted you can scare enemies just by being there. I imagine that it wouldn't be the case if mana bars were to be implanted.
                      It may be simplified example, but it happens and I think that many will agree with me.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        alienufo got it right. Its good the way it is. I'm already against this "how much hp does he have? oh lets count bars"

                        Shouldnt we then have a item bar above their heads to know if they have their core items? e.g. es's dagger, sf's bkb.

                        "Show item bar or hide all items?"

                        not a chance.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I dont think that any pro player need this mana bar. They can cechk it easily.
                          And also I dont think that any total noob is able to check out manually the mana and use this information to decide about his next action.

                          So the question ist, will you help casual gamers playing dota 2 on a better level. With mana bars you take an advantage away from better players and help bad players to play on a good level.
                          I just think you have to figure out if you want to sell dota 2 to million casuals or to 1000 pros.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ArcheKleine View Post
                            I am firmly against this.

                            I'll create an analogy with SC. When playing SC you could figure out a general strength of the opponent's army by scouting. You could only figure out what you have scouted. Sure you can get a feel, but that's something you do after playing the game a lot. The fog of war plays a large part here in the information war that goes on between the two players.

                            The units that one chooses to produce though is what makes the difference in games, aside from familiarity and micro/macro (but we dont have macro here). Not scouting properly, and not having the familiarity when dealing with certain builds/army compositions should mean that you lose. I feel that this should be the same for DotA. There should be no reason to reveal the capabilities/capacity of enemy heroes. The HP bar is more than enough information at most times to figure out the strength of the hero. The other modifiers (armor, magic resistance, mana, damage items, other items) are things that a player should become antiquated with after playing against certain builds. By revealing mana in the use of mana bars, by giving players more information they become more capable of deciding on a method of approach without having built up that familiarity with the opponents' hero yet.

                            Another issue is that what if we let mana bars through? What's to stop the idea of having more information about enemy heroes revealed? Stuff like items can be shown through various visual effects each time it is equipped, the same goes for armor, even MS. I just feel that we approach a very slippery slope whenever we decide that bits of information should be revealed to the players instead of them acquiring the mastery to deal with it on their own.

                            My two cents since most of the core testers have weighed on in this so far. After all we're playing poker here, why should I let you know what cards I am holding? Maybe I'm bluffing you about what I have, maybe I'm not. That's part of the game, and you should use your experience and familiarity of players/heroes to figure that out.
                            Your analogy with SC doesn't work. In SC, the information is not available to you unless you have scouted. In DotA, the hero is right in front of you and you can see all the information by just left-clicking on them. Why not merely add the ability to show additional detailed information without having to click once? Having an inefficient interface does not add skill to the game: requiring people to click to see mana/armour/whatever does not make them better players, it just adds to the mound of stuff new players have to learn.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ElitePartner View Post
                              I dont think that any pro player need this mana bar. They can cechk it easily.
                              And also I dont think that any total noob is able to check out manually the mana and use this information to decide about his next action.

                              So the question ist, will you help casual gamers playing dota 2 on a better level. With mana bars you take an advantage away from better players and help bad players to play on a good level.
                              I just think you have to figure out if you want to sell dota 2 to million casuals or to 1000 pros.
                              the game is not all about pro players; in fact, pro players are the smallest minority.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Show enemy mana bars.

                                It's a good change and helps decision making for players.

                                Originally posted by ArcheKleine View Post
                                I am firmly against this.

                                I'll create an analogy with SC. When playing SC you could figure out a general strength of the opponent's army by scouting. You could only figure out what you have scouted. Sure you can get a feel, but that's something you do after playing the game a lot. The fog of war plays a large part here in the information war that goes on between the two players.
                                Enemy Mana bars are visible in SC2.
                                Last edited by slugonice; 09-29-2011, 03:19 AM.

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