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Radiant needs its Invoker hero badly

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  • Radiant needs its Invoker hero badly

    There's a dial-type hero in Dire camp, radiant should have one too!!!
    So the match do not look one sided conceptually when someone pick Karl.
    (Who doesn't want a Keyboard war of invokers?)

    The game engine, spell concepts and base stats for that hero are already done;
    it just needs a new model (probably of female gender) and the unused spells.

    Since the former dota 1 invoker has 27 spells, this radiant invoker could use
    10 more of the other spells

    0ZYkG.jpg
    If you were to choose 10 spells for a radiant invoker. What would be your pick?
    -Disarm
    -Firebolt
    -Mana Burn
    -Scout
    -Soul Blast
    -Arcane Arts
    -Confuse
    -Firestorm
    -Levitation
    -Portal
    -Shock
    -Soul Reaver
    -Betrayal
    -Energy Ball
    -Frost Nova
    -Inferno
    -Lightning Shield
    -Power Word
    -Shroud of Flame
    -Telelightning
    Last edited by KSnarl; 04-23-2014, 05:03 PM.

  • #2
    First off, there is, quite literally, no difference between Dire and Radiant heroes - they are a shared pool, the allegiances were kept solely for UI purposes. Any side can have any hero even according to the story.

    Second, they do. Rubick pretty much is one.

    And third, I sincerely hope I don't need to explain how much of an unbelieveable fustercluck it would be if that decision was ever to be made. There is too much wrong with it to put into written word.
    Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

    THE DOTA 2 LORE MEGATHREAD IS TO BE UPDATED BY JULY 5TH

    Visit the Dota 2 Lore Megathread. Renovation ongoing.

    Comment


    • #3
      But Rubik doesn't play the same way than invoker, it's not..? Not as intensive
      as invoker, it doesn't have that keyboard "game"
      We have 57 heroes in Radiant with most of their gameplay counterparts in Dire
      (AM/Void, Lina/Lion, Clock/Pudge, PL/Meepo, Kunkka/Tidehunter, etc.) Rubik is not really an Invoker counter.
      How adding a radiant invoker would turn the roster into a fustercluck as you say?
      Last edited by KSnarl; 04-23-2014, 05:38 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I can barely believe I am arguing about this, but the similarities you listed are all superfluous (at best). They are not carbon copies, and they were never supposed to be. The heroes are different, all of them, and the sides barely matter, even from a story standpoint. Invoker is unique, perhaps the most unique of all heroes - adding a new hero with 10 spells of their own would be outrageously difficult, especially in this day and age. Moreover, it would be plain pointless. All the bases on which your argument stands are badly flawed.

        And still this thread is almost better than most of what we see nowadays.
        Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

        THE DOTA 2 LORE MEGATHREAD IS TO BE UPDATED BY JULY 5TH

        Visit the Dota 2 Lore Megathread. Renovation ongoing.

        Comment


        • #5
          A Hero and its rival aren't carbon copies, sure; an Invoker and its rival aren't carbon copies if the spells are different enough.
          Now tell me what's superflous in the similarities? Why a playing style should be unique? Do you really think Valve cannot implement that kind of hero?
          Explain me the bad flaws in what you call my argument?
          Last edited by KSnarl; 04-23-2014, 06:24 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Now tell me what's superflous in the similarities
            Oh dear.

            AM blinks around, farms for a couple of (dozens of) minutes and then ends up being so hard to kill and burning away your mana so quickly that focusing him down becomes impossibly difficult as he is either splitpushing or munching down on a hero in the fight.
            Void has a long cooldown on his jump, farms for slightly less minutes and is a bonafide teamfight specialist with Chronosphere and Time Lock. He does not split-push, he just gets into fights and tries not to handicap his team.
            The only similarity is that they are both carries with survivability skills.

            Lina and Lion are admittedly similar, I have few qualms there. They were some of the first heroes ever concieved.

            Clockwerk is, again, a teamfight specialist whose key skills are Hookshot and Power Cogs. Mostly the latter, the way I see it. He isolates people and makes killing them much easier.
            Pudge is a ganking instant kill kind of hero, who later gets a lot of health.
            The only similarities are an AOE semi-DOT and their hooks, which work in opposite ways.

            PL has an army of illusions which he uses to eat up your towers and eventually heroes, possibly burning mana away and having a nuke and an invis skill.
            Meepo has an army of heroes that can all disable you, teleport from one to the other and is not even always a carry.
            The only similarities they have is that there is a lot of them, and not even in the same way.

            Kunkka and Tidehunter are only connected via the story, I see literally no gameplay similarities in them.

            Why a playing style should be unique
            Because otherwise you get a certain other game where every skill is a token type.

            Explain me the bad flaws in what you call my argument
            Don't I just love wasting time.

            1: Creating a hero so unbelieveably similar to an existing original concept would not be well-met by most anyone, and rightful accusations of lack of ideas would follow.
            2: Balancing a hero with four skills is difficult enough, putting in one with ten when one already exists and is barely held by the game is suicide.
            3: Coming up with a hero that has a working, fully functional skillset of ten skills is needlessly difficult.
            4: As explained above, the similarities in the two hero pools are extremely superfluous and, for the most part, have never even been intended.
            5: These two hero pools don't even matter anywhere anymore.
            6: Rubick fits your darling archetype as he is not only similar to Invoker lore-wise, but possesses an extended amount of abilities that require keywork to be used.

            And now I need to go and do something unspeakable to restore at least a few of my lost IQ points.
            Heroes this user should seriously reconsider ever picking again.

            THE DOTA 2 LORE MEGATHREAD IS TO BE UPDATED BY JULY 5TH

            Visit the Dota 2 Lore Megathread. Renovation ongoing.

            Comment


            • #7
              For me it's still similar. Long start last hitting/jungling, buying the best items, once farmed in late game, pop in with your fast position skill then kill.
              Clock/Pudge has more similarities than the one you exposed; a short area distance damage ability (rot/battery assault), a skill to keep the ennemy in place (Dismember/Cogs),
              to add to the fast-closing skill (Hook/Grappling hook), and of course they are slow moving melee tanks.
              Kunkka/TideHunter: Similar Ultimate of area stun+dmg, torrent/gush to keep your foes close/finish, tidebringer and anchor directly counter themselves. They aren't rivals for no reason!

              Right now, the crushing majority of the available heroes are 4 slot abilities/passive users;
              most use of the two main attack class melee or ranged, can't cross the trees, have the same number of inventory slots, no one scream of thoses "similarities".
              Karl is the only hero to have a dial type gameplay. Would the community cry if a second dial type hero get added?
              Somes like to pick bh to play hide n seek against a picked riki.

              Invoker is very popular and deserve a rival too who plays by the same rules!
              Last edited by KSnarl; 04-23-2014, 07:13 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Invoker is very popular and deserve a rival too who plays by the same rules!
                Invoker is unique, gameplay and lore wise and needs no other match. We're supposed to make the game MORE unique and different, not repetitive and dull.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Similarities does not equate repetitiveness; Remove all the spells on all heroes
                  and look at them fight at each other melee, ranged, the repetitiveness clearly show, and it's not a bad thing;
                  all the heroes plays on a common base; it's the items, spells and their casting method who spread the playstyle.
                  Such that, the heroes are repetitives on their base gameplay, counterbalanced by their abilities, which make them similars, not identical
                  There's so many 4 abilities type heroes in dota 2, it's unbalanced compared to the other spellcasting methods.
                  Where's the scandal in adding a second dial-type hero?

                  Now if you really wants more originality beyond the 10 spells
                  (which brings more than enough differences to keep the base hero intact in my opinion)
                  Then that Radiant invoker hero can use instead a melee attack, a new passive than the stats bonus on element casting,
                  a cooldown for each element pressed instead of 1-3 elemental orbs permanantly floating around,
                  and the "element" concept can be replaced by another... Anything conveivable. It's up to what's needed to make it works,
                  but what's important is the dial-type gameplay
                  Last edited by KSnarl; 04-23-2014, 08:02 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    TL;DR

                    For short, WE DON'T NEED REDUNDANCY.

                    GOD, would Valve/IceFrog/whoever really go through all the trouble of making a SECOND Invoker with extra skills?? It's pointless!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Rubick should be the Invoker Radiant. Invoker boasts of having 10 spells at his arsenal but Rubick has 4 + 20 spells from the enemy side. He has more spells than Invoker at the cost of him not being keyboard intensive. If you want the keyboard game, then tinker is keyboard intensive with his rearm ability + items.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You can consider Beasmaster, Meepo, Chen too if all you want is a keyboard game against invoker

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GoldK View Post
                          Rubick should be the Invoker Radiant. Invoker boasts of having 10 spells at his arsenal but Rubick has 4 + 20 spells from the enemy side. He has more spells than Invoker at the cost of him not being keyboard intensive. If you want the keyboard game, then tinker is keyboard intensive with his rearm ability + items.
                          Spell stealing with rubik require to play mostly on reaction (wait someone to use a good spell before any action), and you can't combo spells at the same speed than Karl.
                          For tinker he has a very few combos (laser, missile, rearm, laser missle, rearm...) (mom, rearm, mom, rearm, mom...)
                          there's not that degree of improvisation needed in a short time

                          Originally posted by alien007 View Post
                          You can consider Beasmaster, Meepo, Chen too if all you want is a keyboard game against invoker
                          It's not a dial type style of keyboarding, and they don't have an extensive number of spells to juggle with

                          Originally posted by Shadrone View Post
                          TL;DR

                          For short, WE DON'T NEED REDUNDANCY.

                          GOD, would Valve/IceFrog/whoever really go through all the trouble of making a SECOND Invoker with extra skills?? It's pointless!!!
                          Dota 2 allow you to pick a counter or a rival, to play either by efficiency or by competition;
                          to show the opposing team you're better at said field rather than just trying to counter it.
                          There are several rivals for several aspects of the game; assassination, gold digging, demolition, debuff, crowd assault, crowd control, etc.

                          If you remove all redundency, all "repetitiveness" of the game. Then each special role or ability would be limited to only one hero:
                          the game roster would be reduced tenfold for the sake of uniqueness,
                          and you can only pick counters, turning the game into a forced "rock paper scissor" match

                          Invoker has no rivals in his keyboard-dial style of playing;
                          memorising a large pool of spells, combining them for the right context, and pulling them in the shortest time possible,
                          all of theses combined constitute a genre.

                          Look at riki, bh, nyx, slark, they are pretty similar and it's nice they can be picked
                          to biker over who's the best stealth assassin. Does adding one extra dialer caster a taboo?
                          I'm not suggesting for three, or ten Invokers
                          Last edited by KSnarl; 04-24-2014, 04:20 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For any kind of hero suggestion, (>0_0)>

                            If you are here to say 'IceFrog should do this, IceFrog should do that', IceFrog has better things to do than listening you.

                            Originally posted by Phoenix.
                            2013: 10 heroes, 3 reworks, 4 events, hats, 1 arcana and TI
                            2014: 4 heroes, 2 events, 2 arcanas, hats, 1 rework and TI.
                            Lazyness. Not to mention the lack of bugfixes, and the amount of new ones with each new content added


                            Credits to Phoenix.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KSnarl View Post
                              If you remove all redundency, all "repetitiveness" of the game. Then each special role or ability would be limited to only one hero:
                              the game roster would be reduced tenfold for the sake of uniqueness,
                              and you can only pick counters, turning the game into a forced "rock paper scissor" match

                              Invoker has no rivals in his keyboard-dial style of playing;
                              memorising a large pool of spells, combining them for the right context, and pulling them in the shortest time possible,
                              all of theses combined constitute a genre.

                              Look at riki, bh, nyx, slark, they are pretty similar and it's nice they can be picked
                              to biker over who's the best stealth assassin. Does adding one extra dialer caster a taboo?
                              I'm not suggesting for three, or ten Invokers
                              Look. All the Heroes you have mentioned are simple compared to Invoker. They're just the "generic" type of Hero. Invoker was made to be the ONLY Hero that CONJURES other spells that he may use. It's like his OWN idea. And many consider Rubick to be his equivalent. Hell, they're both Maguses (the Grand and Arsenal Magi).

                              Not ALL Heroes need a "rival" or an opposite. Bristleback has no opposite. No one's whining about him.

                              Ugh, whatever. All I just wanna say is that your idea is a redundant one. I really see no benefit in adding another invoke-type of Hero JUST for the sake of adding one to the other faction. The factions don't even matter!! Doom is like the Satan of Dota, while Chen is like that annoying Jehovah's Witness humping your door. But they both can be picked by the "goodie-goody gumdrops Radiant" and the "earls of evilosity Dire".

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