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  • You can discuss about how legit you were etc.
    The issue at hand however is that it is/was the main source of item farming and now it is being countered.

    It is not trivial to differ an item farmer between a legit player. Every game that got big has to deal with botters and they never solved the issue.

    Watching a game and playing simultaneously doesn't exactly work. I tried watching twitch and playing simultaneously and I kept missing the kills (be it in stream or in my actual game). Besides that's exactly what an item farmer would do. Have as many dota instances run in background spectating tournament games while playing games on an other account.

    As I said there will be always collateral damage. And item farmers are the bigger issue.

    --------------

    This change doesn't hurt traders in anyway. You can still run multiple instances of Steam. And if you are truly only a trader why would you have two Dota instances open?
    James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
    * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
    Spoiler: 


    Comment


    • There's no point on trying to defend on how you were banned. If you're using third party software like sandboxie, you're already breaking the rules. Accept the fact that you broke the rule. I for one accepted it, I just want to know the complete details of the ban.

      Our bans are still shady as fuck, apparently we aren't VAC banned. It's like we're in a special kind of low priority.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mikkoxdd View Post
        There's no point on trying to defend on how you were banned. If you're using third party software like sandboxie, you're already breaking the rules. Accept the fact that you broke the rule. I for one accepted it, I just want to know the complete details of the ban.
        Yup. We all have broken rules but we have to know if it is permanent ban or not..

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MNM1337 View Post
          Guys, i think that we have to decide to do something. Valve made mistake, its obvious. We need to make actions, not just whine here..
          thing is when you talk to valve support they give u link

          www.dev.dota2.com

          so the solution will be fixed here only no where else on earth!!

          Comment


          • I played a custom lobby, me vs myself, to test something. This doesn't use matchmaking at all. No items are given. No possibility of abuse. Neither account can find a match anymore.

            I find it hard to imagine that this is a genuinely implemented feature, because it's too hamfisted to have been created intentionally. I think there's a bug, either server side, which may be resolved on server reset. Alternatively it may be client side, which should be resolved by deleting Steam completely from your computer and reinstalling.
            To avoid LPQ:

            Don't draw attention to yourself
            Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
            Mute all at lvl 1
            Only play in parties
            Get alternate accounts
            Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
            Don't play too well
            Don't play on Sunday or Monday
            Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

            If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

            You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Craig View Post
              I played a custom lobby, me vs myself, to test something. This doesn't use matchmaking at all. No items are given. No possibility of abuse. Neither account can find a match anymore.

              I find it hard to imagine that this is a genuinely implemented feature, because it's too hamfisted to have been created intentionally. I think there's a bug, either server side, which may be resolved on server reset. Alternatively it may be client side, which should be resolved by deleting Steam completely from your computer and reinstalling.
              Already did that, doesn't work.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
                You can discuss about how legit you were etc.
                The issue at hand however is that it is/was the main source of item farming and now it is being countered.

                It is not trivial to differ an item farmer between a legit player. Every game that got big has to deal with botters and they never solved the issue.

                Watching a game and playing simultaneously doesn't exactly work. I tried watching twitch and playing simultaneously and I kept missing the kills (be it in stream or in my actual game). Besides that's exactly what an item farmer would do. Have as many dota instances run in background spectating tournament games while playing games on an other account.

                As I said there will be always collateral damage. And item farmers are the bigger issue.

                --------------

                This change doesn't hurt traders in anyway. You can still run multiple instances of Steam. And if you are truly only a trader why would you have two Dota instances open?
                But this only affects people farming items in game, not spectator farming as that is still possible. We also don't know if simply having two steams open would trigger this, or if you need to launch Dota 2(I would assume you would have to open Dota). As for why you would want multiple dotas open, having the ability to view gold/xp charts at will for games you bet on that are being played at the same time is far superior to viewing it on twitch. I don't really care about the item drops, the chances of getting them are ridiculously small, not to mention the majority are not worth much anyway. I also used it to trade items so I could bet on multiple D2L games at the same time, granted this is no longer needed since you can trade offline now, but it still saves a lot of time when your making 10+ bets a day on 3 accounts (some betters have a dozen+). If having multiple steams open doesn't cause the ban, this would still be possible although organizing inventories or managing compendiums would have to be done on a 1 by 1 basis, which I would be fine with, as long as we were forewarned.

                As for why traders would want multiple dotas open, the main reason is because its a hassle managing your friends list when making large amounts of trades in a day, and the amount of invites of people asking for free items or deals because you have a lot of items are your main account get annoying. For example, if I was trading new keys or players cards etc, I would use my alternate account to trade with since its friend list is near empty, and I could simply remove everyone at the end of the day without any risk of removing my real friends, and I wouldn't have to deal with "please give me a courier, you have so many and I have none" invites.

                Giving a warning with an MMR wipe would have been much better, since as of now all this does is prevent item farmers from getting more items. They can still trade everything they have gotten, spectate tournaments, and still have their current MMR (although you can't really play). Giving a warning and wiping MMR would have served the same purpose, except that people who aren't item farmers could have taken steps to stop using a program, that for several years gave quality of life improvements and caused no issues until this month. I could understand not giving a warning IF you where vac banning the accounts and prevented them from selling their inventories etc, however shadowbanning just caused a lot of grief to legitimate users.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mikkoxdd View Post
                  Already did that, doesn't work.
                  Did you delete the entire Steam folder from your machine?

                  eg:

                  C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\
                  Last edited by Craig; 05-24-2014, 05:55 AM.
                  To avoid LPQ:

                  Don't draw attention to yourself
                  Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
                  Mute all at lvl 1
                  Only play in parties
                  Get alternate accounts
                  Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
                  Don't play too well
                  Don't play on Sunday or Monday
                  Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

                  If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

                  You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Craig View Post
                    Did you delete the entire Steam folder from your machine?
                    Yup uninstalled Steam > Deleted Steam folder > Installed Steam

                    Comment


                    • @ Esg: Having 2 Steam instances open does not trigger it. I also run multiple instances of Steam. Which brings back to why would you run 2 instances of Dota? Unless you are running a chat bot which is flooding the channels. But then you deserve it.
                      And you cannot play a game and spectate simultaneously. I tried it with twitch before and I kept missing kills. And people don't spectate 2, 3 or even 4 games simultaneously.

                      And again: You cannot view it from a single perspective. This is a huge step countering item farmers. You don't know if spectator farming is still possible. They can still spectate, yes. But their account is flagged with a shadowban and what if that flag prevents them from getting drops? I safely assumed this because it is easy to do.

                      @ Craig: Seems like you shouldn't play on two accounts simultaneously even if it is for testing purposes.
                      Last week I had 2 instances of Dota idling at main menu. I still can queue normally.
                      So there is surely more to it. How to trigger that ban. I never felt the need of watching a tournament and playing a game. That behavior is also very similar to an item farmers so that will probably get you banned.
                      Last edited by GermanViet; 05-24-2014, 06:06 AM. Reason: misunderstood a post.
                      James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
                      * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
                      Spoiler: 


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Craig View Post
                        Did you delete the entire Steam folder from your machine?

                        eg:

                        C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\
                        Yes

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mikkoxdd View Post
                          Yes
                          Then there's probably a bug on the matchmaking server. I expect, it's accepting the request to find a match, but when a match is ready, it's trying to send the notification to the previous instance of the client, due to some bad clean up code.

                          It's too hard to believe that:

                          1) 2 clients on the same machine are accepted into matchmaking the queue
                          2) They're assigned the same match via MM
                          3) After the match, they're banned without notification
                          4) No check is performed to see if they were in a custom lobby
                          5) No check is performed to see if they could've been engaged in abuse
                          6) The clients are accepted back into the queue
                          7) The clients are never assigned a match

                          Of all the ways you might implement a system to prevent item and MMR farming, you wouldn't do it like this. It's not how you would design it and it's not the simplest way to do it either.
                          Last edited by Craig; 05-24-2014, 06:22 AM.
                          To avoid LPQ:

                          Don't draw attention to yourself
                          Don't use voice or chat except for 'ss'
                          Mute all at lvl 1
                          Only play in parties
                          Get alternate accounts
                          Limit your usage to one or two games per day per account
                          Don't play too well
                          Don't play on Sunday or Monday
                          Wait until the developers reset LPQ status

                          If you're getting matched with trolls or feeders:

                          You may have been placed in a hidden pool. There is no known way out of this, apart from moving to a different account.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Craig View Post
                            Then there's probably a bug on the matchmaking server. I expect, it's accepting the request to find a match, but when a match is ready, it's trying to send the notification to the previous instance of the client, due to some bad clean up code.

                            It's too hard to believe that:

                            1) 2 clients on the same machine are accepted into matchmaking the queue
                            2) They're assigned the same match via MM
                            3) After the match, they're banned without notification
                            4) No check is performed to see if they were in a custom lobby
                            5) No check is performed to see if they could've been engaged in abuse
                            6) The clients are accepted back into the queue, but just never assigned a match.
                            I can say honestly that i tried 1 time to queue together with my smurf account BUT i even didnt have these 2 accs maked in 1 lobby. Hope you understand me...
                            And i got ban

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GermanViet View Post
                              @ Esg: Having 2 Steam instances open does not trigger it. I also run multiple instances of Steam. Which brings back to why would you run 2 instances of Dota? Unless you are running a chat bot which is flooding the channels. But then you deserve it.
                              And you cannot play a game and spectate simultaneously. I tried it with twitch before and I kept missing kills. And people don't spectate 2, 3 or even 4 games simultaneously.

                              And again: You cannot view it from a single perspective. This is a huge step countering item farmers. You don't know if spectator farming is still possible. They can still spectate, yes. But their account is flagged with a shadowban and what if that flag prevents them from getting drops? I safely assumed this because it is easy to do.

                              @ Craig: Seems like you shouldn't play on two accounts simultaneously even if it is for testing purposes.
                              Last week I had 2 instances of Dota idling at main menu. I still can queue normally.
                              So there is surely more to it. How to trigger that ban. I never felt the need of watching a tournament and playing a game. That behavior is also very similar to an item farmers so that will probably get you banned.
                              The only time I played with my other account was when my party of 4 needed one more for year beast groups back with the visage bug. I used my second account to play visage because we didn't want a random player who had no idea how to do the bug. This was back in February, and was used for maybe 5 runs total. Other then that I have never played with my own accounts together. You can also still get spectating items, as I received a drop today from a game, yet my que goes past 20 minunutes, so this fix did nothing for spectating.

                              As for not spectating multiple games, I never said I watch all of them at the same time. For example, this DK vs LGD game I would view in one Dota game, with sounds on. A second game, such as Mouz vs Relax which I also bet on, but would not rather watch over DK vs LGD I leave open, and every few minutes check the gold/xp/kill status of the teams to know how it was going, and adjust future bets if I believe a team is showing signs of bad play that day. On occasions where the day has a ton of dota (IE Ti4 qualifers), I tend to have twitch, and two games open to see a total of 3 games and adjust bets as needed. Using twitch or multi twitch is inefficient since I cannot simply check the gold/xp/kills at will, and knowing whether a team had a huge lead and threw, made a comeback, or if the game was very close is more important for the rest of the days bets then simply knowing who won/lost. This information is what allows you to actually make informed decisions in betting, and not rely on blind luck or guesses.

                              Again, I have no issue with them banning accounts, but at this point the shadow ban did absolutely nothing except stop MMR abuse and item farming from afk bots. This could have been done by simply giving a warning and an MMR reset, and avoided a lot of grief for non bot users.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Craig View Post
                                Then there's probably a bug on the matchmaking server. I expect, it's accepting the request to find a match, but when a match is ready, it's trying to send the notification to the previous instance of the client, due to some bad clean up code.

                                It's too hard to believe that:

                                1) 2 clients on the same machine are accepted into matchmaking the queue
                                2) They're assigned the same match via MM
                                3) After the match, they're banned without notification
                                4) No check is performed to see if they were in a custom lobby
                                5) No check is performed to see if they could've been engaged in abuse
                                6) The clients are accepted back into the queue, but just never assigned a match.

                                Of all the ways you might implement a system to prevent item and MMR farming, you wouldn't do it like this. It's not how you would design it and it's not the simplest way to do it either.
                                Simple question for you: How do you run 2x dota2 on the same acc/PC without sanboxing it? simple answer: You dont/cant.

                                Also, if this was really a bug, dont you think valve would have fix it by now?
                                If you find spelling errors, you are free to take them.

                                Comment

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