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[Suggestion] Tournament MatchMaking

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  • [Suggestion] Tournament MatchMaking

    Tournament MatchMaking would be a matchmaking system that "simulates" a 16-team double-elimination bracket tournament.* This means that clans participate in a "virtual" tournament where clans get matched accordingly to their virtual position on the bracket with a pool far exceeding 16 clans and thus greatly reducing waiting times.*

    The upside of this, is that clans can play whenever it fits them, and progress at the rate that they wish to play.




    Clan system. (+ringing)

    The first requirement is the ability to create a clan that can join tournaments and can be ranked.
    When a clan is created, players from that clan can to sign in to the clan's tournament party and pick a captain.

    Also a neat feature for serious play would be ability to ring or substitute a player in game with another player during the games.* And also the ability to reassemble the party and have other clanmates/captains continue playing the tournament.
    This ability should only be optional for clan-members, and only if they were members at the start of the tournament and aren't already engaged with another clan.*


    Tournament Simulation

    The tournament simulated can be, for example, a 16-team double-elimination bracket tournament with a winner and a loser bracket similiar to the Dota 2 International.

    The intial group stage can simulated as followed. First option would be to divide the matchmaking-pool in groups of 4 clans and match them against one another. However this isn't neccesary, and inconvenient for the players as they would have to wait for matches to finish.
    The best option would be to divide the entire matchmaking-pool based on the number of games played, and match them accordingly. The clans can then be divided between the winner or loser bracket based on the number of wins because one half of the clans will win 2/3 games, the other half wins 0/1 games.

    A reason for concern is the fact that clans that end up in the loser bracket might be inclined to forfeit, resulting in matchmaking-pools becoming disproportional. If this happens, it will be increasingly difficult to provide a matchmaking service higher up the ladder.
    However, this can be resolved by adding an option for clans to forfeit, or a forfeit penalty (in-case a clan doesn't return to the tournament within a certain time-frame) so that there's a "forfeit-pool" that can be matched against clans - resulting in automatic wins.

    After the group stage, clans get matches against all other clans based on their "virtual" position in their respective bracket. Note that these are all the other clans of the same tier, perhaps hundreds of clans. The clans are not split in a predefined set of 16 clans.*

    When playing best out of three or five, they should be matched against the same clan (for obvious reasons.) For convenience there should an option to schedule or reschedule matches by concensus, or the option to pause inbetween matches up to 30 minutes by demand.


    Ranking System

    The ranking, and matchmaking service, is split in different tiers. Clans advance to higher tiers by winning tournaments. This requires consistent play - winning 11-12 games per tournament. Top-tier clans can be ranked by a more traditional ranking system to have more detailed ladders.

    I have devised a tier system below that only allows a tiny percentage of the players to achieve the top tier rank and keeps the gross of players (50%) in the entry-level tier. The point of this tier system is to divide the clan-pool between their respective skill-level before matchmaking.

    A possible flaw of this system is that as higher skilled clans tier up and leave the entry-level pools, it will become increasingly easier to advance from these tiers, corrupting higher tiers.
    I solved this by adding a "buffer"-tiers around the entry level tier. Therefore look at pseudo-Tier 3 and 4 as a whole as pseudo-Tier 3 assimilates pseudo-Tier 4 "bads" over time.* One must also consider skill improving in all tiers as the community matures.

    *10-15% of the clanbase + another 1% per ~50 tournaments cycles in Tier 2.

    Originally posted by LADDER FLOWCHART BELOW
    A clan will advancing in tiers by:
    - Winning 3+X* tournaments in Tier 2.
    - Winning a tournament in Tier 3, 4 and 5
    - Winning the loser bracket 2+X* times from Tier 3 and 4.

    X* being the amount of times a clan has lost the first stage of the loser bracket in this tier.


    A clan drops out of his tier if it:
    - loses the first stage of the loser bracket more than it has won tournaments in Tier 2.
    - loses the first stage of the loser bracket 2+X* times in Tier 3 and 4.

    X* being the amount of times a clan has won the loser bracket in this tier.


    TIER 3
    pseudo-Tier 5 will be the lowest tier. I estimate it'll hold 5-15% of the clanbase, given that clans in this environment will most likely disband over time, or remake their clan.
    The main purpose of this Tier is to collect “trash” and seperate it from the entry-level matchmaking service.

    pseudo-Tier 4 is the entry-level tier and it will hold 40-50% of the clanbase.
    Winning a tournament in this tier advances the clan a to Tier 3. Winning the loser bracket 2 times will also advance the clan, given it has no "losses" (described above.)

    pseudo-Tier 3 will hold 30-35% of the clanbase, is structurally identical to Tier 4.
    Winning a tournament in this tier advances the clan a to Tier 2. Winning the loser bracket 2 times will also advance the clan, given it has no "losses" (described above.)

    Pseudo-tiers are pooled seperate.

    TIER 2
    Tier 2 will hold 10-15% of the clanbase. To be more punishing than Tier 3, it does not “catch” clans that "lose" (described above.) by allowing them to continue in this tier unless they already have a win.
    Winning 3 tournament in this tier is the only way to advance.

    TIER 1
    Tier 1 will accumelating 1-2% of the clanbase after 50 to 100 tournament cycles, and more over time. Because of the consistency in skill required to achieve a Tier 1 rating, it might not be required to drop clans from this tier. It might be favorable to match Tier 1 clans with Tier 2++ clans for the convenience of finding matches, and making Tier 1 more exclusive by making Tier 2 more difficult after 2 tournament victories. Because end-of-the-line Tier 1 will accumulate more and more clans over time, clan in this tier will compete among themselves so it might be favorable to have a detailed Tier 1 clan ladder based on a point system.

    Chart/simulation: http://mijiru.com/stuff/chart.jpg
    Last edited by cn.white; 02-05-2012, 05:28 AM. Reason: comprehensibility and corrections*

  • #2
    Updated*

    Similar team system and matchmaking: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=18392
    Last edited by cn.white; 02-02-2012, 05:58 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      you should add tl;dr.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by cn.white View Post
        Updated*

        No feedback?
        Probably because this game is still in beta and probably will be for some time.
        SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION. DAMNIT.

        Comment


        • #5
          tl;dr: possibly a CAL/Cevo/Esea-like system?

          Comment


          • #6
            +1

            Valve should hire you.
            Originally posted by Shibubu
            Sure, it looks a bit silly, but this helmet makes more sense than ~50% of Furions cosmetics that are already in the game. And its not like he's wielding a wooden penis (one can easily make a penis shaped staff out of wooden branch and there are no arguments why it could not be done). The Acorn helmet is actually VERY fitting since it's natural shape is used. Also it is used for it's quality to withstand blows.
            Wow, amazing insight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Albain View Post
              +1

              Valve should hire you.
              Maybe after the 9000 hours in excell I spend trying to make a profitable pay2play/compete system out of this by adding prizemoney - because I dont want fucking hats!
              But as long as DOTA 2 is still heading for retail there's no point
              Last edited by cn.white; 02-02-2012, 07:03 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                +90000000000
                i've been wanting this since RoC dota
                FIX TEAM MATCHMAKING

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bad, just use wc3's automated tournament format.
                  Valve Damage Control Department Rep #16: Unpaid Employee
                  Shut up and buy a compendium
                  Have a complaint? File it here

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Okay, and what's the point of this tournament system exactly? It sounds like a ranking system with tiers and you've just devised the formula.

                    I'm not trying to sound bitter because I made the same suggestion (http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=20061)
                    So is there much difference from what I said and what you said? It seems the same layout as SC2, but the tier groups are smaller.

                    I'm not sure whether a "tournament" system is good (not sure if you're using the right word)
                    I envision a tournament as everyone starts at the same starting place, then need to beat concurrent clans in order to proceed. What if a team AFK's? What happens to the other team which is waiting to advance?

                    I think I understand that your general concept is matching clans of similar skill to verse eachother? Which is what I want too.

                    I had trouble visualising your post, and what's the ability to ring a clanmate? Is that's the ability to substitute a player in game with another player? If so I really don't think that's a good idea.

                    So what are the major differences from my suggestion and yours?
                    Last edited by Xemption; 02-02-2012, 08:03 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nice system, i also like the idea of the buffer Stages, which explains to me most of the matchmaking, i have experienced in sc2.

                      Your System has the following problem. Clans, who play many games, will either be ranked higher or will not find any games.

                      Take for instance a decent clan, playing at peak hour: he will finish first in his "minitournament" and advance higher and higher.
                      On the other side a bad clan, playing at a hour with less users, will also finish first, since many opponents will forfeit due to time issues.
                      Even worse, the decent clan could only be playing 1 or 2 games and therefore finish somewhere in the lower placements, maybe even get rated down.

                      The reason is simply, that you dont invest the time of 4 cws, which is more than 4-5 hours, since you will have to wait for other teams to finish etc, unless something is at stacke like prizemoney or you are on an event such as a lanparty.

                      Default-Wins when teams quit a "tournament", will result in active teams, no matter the skill, getting rated into the higher leagues. Teams with lesser activity, will stay in the lower leagues, with very heterogen skill level, since its mostly random, who wins a tournament because of default-wins.
                      Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                      Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                      My Suggestion: Coaching System
                      My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                      My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Whats wrong wit a typical ladder system? clans join mm, get matched agains each other, win and loose points according to their ranking, bad clans go down the ladder, good clans up

                        Offline finals or top16/32/64 group stage(seeding acording to ladder rankings ladder #1 group A, ladder #2 group B etc, Ladder #64 group A...) double eli online tournament with decend prizemoney few times a year. Deep prizemoney split, every top16 team should win something to help the lower skilled teams and build up the scene. Top 3 clans will get their money in a ton of other tournamens, valve should focus on a the scene future and they do so by shifting the prize money philosophy

                        same system for lower skilled clans to support the growth of new tallents from the bottom, top 128-192, same rules, lower prizemoney
                        [Suggestion]Display PAUSE duration and number of pauses
                        [Suggestion]In-game advertisement, why dota2 needs it
                        [Suggestion]Live game/replay filter, rating, sort by option|caster language filter
                        [Suggestion]Steam wide top live matches promotion
                        [Suggestion]Top live matches, upcomming matches calendar
                        [Suggestion]anti spoiler replay feature
                        [Suggestion]Matchmaking, ranking, team features

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Xemption View Post
                          [...] So is there much difference from what I said [ http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=20061 ] and what you said?
                          [...] I'm not sure whether a "tournament" system is good (not sure if you're using the right word)
                          [...] What if a team AFK's? What happens to the other team which is waiting to advance?
                          [...] I had trouble visualising your post, and what's the ability to ring a clanmate? Is that's the ability to substitute a player in game with another player? If so I really don't think that's a good idea.
                          So what are the major differences from my suggestion and yours?
                          Double-elimination bracket (tournament) would be the right term. And yes, the concept is identical to yours, except more elaborate, and probably too elaborate. With the major difference being (a probably moot) tier system and of-course the double-elimination bracket.
                          Ringing is indeed the ability to substitute a player in game with another player, during or between games. Generally that means it's prone to abuse, but it should only be optional for clan-members, and only if they were members at the start of the tournament and aren't already engaged with another clan. This is vital (imo,) to assure the quality and validity of games, as players might drop for all kind of reasons. If here are issues with ringing, like abuse, I'd appreciate more of your input on the matter.

                          Also, I don't think a team can gain an unfair advantage. I hope I explained this in my response to blash (below.)

                          Originally posted by blash365 View Post
                          Your System has the following problem. Clans, who play many games, will either be ranked higher or will not find any games.

                          Take for instance a decent clan, playing at peak hour: he will finish first in his "minitournament" and advance higher and higher.
                          On the other side a bad clan, playing at a hour with less users, will also finish first, since many opponents will forfeit due to time issues.
                          Even worse, the decent clan could only be playing 1 or 2 games and therefore finish somewhere in the lower placements, maybe even get rated down.

                          The reason is simply, that you dont invest the time of 4 cws, which is more than 4-5 hours, since you will have to wait for other teams to finish etc, unless something is at stacke like prizemoney or you are on an event such as a lanparty.
                          This would be true, but that's why I mention the tournament to be "virtual/simulated". With this I mean that even though you have a 16-clan ladder tournament, clans get matched from the entire pool. Imagine dozens/hundreds of teams on every position in a virtual bracket, instead of just one, they just get matched with whoever is in the same spot at the same time.
                          It is still true that for the highest ranked clans, aka tier 1, this pool would be too small, and therefore would have enormous waiting times if matching them atomically. But I imagined tournaments between clans of this magnitude would probably include broadcasting and prize money, and would therefore be highly organized and scheduled with fixed clans per ladder instead of simulating this. Just achieving this Tier through matchmaking would be an uprising clan's ticket into tournaments of this magnitude.

                          But to comeback to the possible flaw you addressed, let's run through some number's for Tier 2 (14% of all clans.) Say there are 10,000 players in (simulated-)TMM currently active in you're region. (I suppose this would be a low amount of players once Dota 2 hits retail.) That's 272-288 clans in a 16-clan tournament in Tier 2. Or 34-36 clans (1/8) that make it all the way through to the finals. Being there are only 24 hours in a day, and 17-18 matched-ups to be made, I don't imagine waiting times to be very long. Also, we are talking best out of 5, so an option to schedule these matches ahead of time would have to be integrated, and matches can then be made accordingly because they will be forced to play against the same clan. I don't see how it would be possible for clans to cheat the system.
                          Also 8 team brackets can be made instead. Or 32-64 team brackets for Tier 3. Although this requires an overhaul of how clans can progress through tiers.

                          Also, the issue of forfeit is adressed in my original post. Clans, at any point, can send to the matchmaking system that they forfeit in between positions, or forcefully removed from the pool when do not return within a certain duration. During a match (best of 3 or 5) this results in an automatic win. But between positions, they are on the virtual bracket. This means that every clan in the same position has an equal chance of yielding a win by forfeit.

                          Originally posted by daarkside View Post
                          Whats wrong wit a typical ladder system? clans join mm, get matched agains each other, win and loose points according to their ranking, bad clans go down the ladder, good clans up
                          [...] valve should focus on a the scene future and they do so by shifting the prize money philosophy
                          I guess there would be nothing wrong with that either. I was personally more attracted to a bracket setting that included a wide range of players to speed up the matchmaking process.

                          As for prize-money philosophy, it's funny that you raise this point. Initially I devised my tier-/rating-system just to calculate a scenario where prize-money is spread among tournaments and individual clans depending on their position in the bracket. I sort of dropped that concept, but I still wasted time tinkering in Excell with this. In one scenario could buy tokens to participate, and then yield prize-money or break-even, while progressing to bigger prize-money pools. Also players could be given the incentive to participate in reciprocate behavior (coaching) in return for tokens.
                          Prize-money pools would be mostly added to a player's steam wallet to keep most of the money invested in dota within the steam platform. I'm not sure if I should post this, because this is a very subtle (and manipulative) way of making money, probably abusing competitive drive and slot-machine mentality.
                          Last edited by cn.white; 02-05-2012, 05:30 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cn.white View Post
                            let's run through some number's for Tier 2 (14% of all clans.) Say there are 10,000 players in (simulated-)TMM currently active in you're region. (I suppose this would be a low amount of players once Dota 2 hits retail.) That's 272-288 clans in a 16-clan tournament in Tier 2. Or 34-36 clans (1/8) that make it all the way through to the finals.
                            Albeit you are only accounting beta players, you are still saying, that all of them are playing in a team and that all of the teams are synchronized (meaning playing at the same time). When i play matchmaking, i tend to meet many solos, duos, trios and quartetts. I'd say only around 10% of the current playerbase are playing in teams of 5. Out of those 10% only very few play in consistent teams of 5. The others shuffle players around from friendlists. Out of those consistent teams not all teams will be willing to commit to a tournament. This would reduce your available clans to an insufficient number in the current state of the beta.
                            Maybe in a public state, the numbers work out better.

                            Originally posted by cn.white View Post
                            Being there are only 24 hours in a day, and 17-18 matched-ups to be made, I don't imagine waiting times to be very long. Also, we are talking best out of 5, so an option to schedule these matches ahead of time would have to be integrated, and matches can then be made accordingly because they will be forced to play against the same clan. I don't see how it would be possible for clans to cheat the system.
                            Also 8 team brackets can be made instead. Or 32-64 team brackets for Tier 3. Although this requires an overhaul of how clans can progress through tiers.
                            I have played many wc3 tournaments. There you had a preliminary league mode (basically like matchmaking based on the preliminary score), where teams could get scores for wins (+3), draws (+1) and loses (-1). All games had a timelimit, so that it could be ensured to finish up to 8 games within the time of the preliminary. After the preliminary the 16 fastest and bestscored teams would engage in a normal single elimination tournament tree.
                            Those tournaments had more than thousands of participating teams. But when it came down to finishing 8 games, only few (around 50) made 6 or more.
                            Even though the Tournaments were announced and had a doable shedule, only organized teams, could make it to the top.
                            I think you would do yourself a favor, by doing something similar to a prelim, to filter out unactive teams, instead of creating tournament trees, where only 1 or 2 teams will play them out.
                            Make sure to read the Forum Rules as well as the stickied Threads of the Forum Section you are posting in.

                            Contributions i'd like to highlight:
                            My Suggestion: Coaching System
                            My Sticky: Intended Changes List
                            My Challenge: Completely Fixed Hero Challenge: Skywrath Mage

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              tl dr
                              But +1

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