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We really need stats now.

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  • Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
    Explain please.

    What numbers do you see which make you think you need to do better. As far as I know, everybody strives for getting a high KDR when playing carry and a high ward count as a support.

    Personally I would like to see average CK/D in 10 min periods, neutral/enemy creeps killed ratio; average wards, sentries per early, mid, late game, number of neutral camp stacks... Stats that actually reflect your skill.

    With help of certain web pages I already know my average GPM, EPM, KDR(everyone can see that already)... But that means nothing to me.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
      Explain please.

      What numbers do you see which make you think you need to do better. As far as I know, everybody strives for getting a high KDR when playing carry and a high ward count as a support.
      I don't go for high ward count as support as I usually leave warding up to my friend who loves to play ganker (he also loves to ward). As support I usually deck myself out in healing both health and mana of my carry. What stat can tell you that your wards were placed in a manner in which actually helped your team? I could just buy wards and place them in from of our fountain. I also don't always play support, even though I love doing it. Sometimes I'll play nuker, ganker, carry, pusher, etc. Just because I'm good at support doesn't mean I can't be good at other things.

      As far as stats overall go, there is no stat that can tell you how many times you prevented your carry from dying. There's no stat for how many times you've stunned someone to prevent death or initiate a team kill. There's no stat for how many people you've killed while they were invisible. There's no stat for how many times you've stolen a kill from a carry that needed it. There's no stat for how many times you've initiated a team fight and your team sat idly by to watch you die. There's no stat for how many times you've successfully black holed the entire team while your team mates ripped them apart. I could keep going all day about why this system would be broken. You could end up recruiting someone with a high KDR only to find out they play nuker and steal all the kills from your carries.

      Stats would only encourage kill stealing, 5 carry teams, and horrible team work. Honestly if you need verification that you're good at this game, I can tell you right now that you aren't.

      Comment


      • i dont know, maybe im some kind of superhuman but ive played >1000 games on dotaleague with all sort of stats and didnt care about them one bit.
        i mean it was nice to see them but i didnt alter my play to get better stats and i rarely saw anyone else do it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Arteus View Post
          Personally I would like to see average CK/D in 10 min periods, neutral/enemy creeps killed ratio; average wards, sentries per early, mid, late game, number of neutral camp stacks... Stats that actually reflect your skill.

          With help of certain web pages I already know my average GPM, EPM, KDR(everyone can see that already)... But that means nothing to me.
          Okay, you did not answer my question completely.
          I know you want those ratios. But explain to me, when you see for example your 30 CK/D (Creep kill/Death I assume? You may have something different, but that's not the point) what goes through your mind?

          And GMan, I agree with you, that if your friend takes the responsibility for warding you are not needed to do so. But before every game starts and I am for example Crystal Maiden, then my first intention is to ward. If there is another player who desperately wants that role I let him and buy other supportive items.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Irrelevante View Post
            Here's a hint: Read the thread's title.
            oh i thought it was about random arguments that are easy to prove wrong

            Comment


            • Originally posted by wolleesel View Post
              oh i thought it was about random arguments that are easy to prove wrong
              No need. You've provided enough of those already.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Irrelevante View Post
                No need. You've provided enough of those already.
                Increasing the number of players couldn't possibly have any effect on matchmaking quality!

                Please help keep the forums clean by reporting rude or abusive posts!
                Got a problem? PM me or another moderator!
                Forum Rules

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DarkLite View Post
                  Increasing the number of players couldn't possibly have any effect on matchmaking quality!

                  ye since the quality didnt improve in hon / lol it will improve in dota for sure

                  more players = more fun - who cares about elo or mm formula
                  more players = more fun

                  Comment


                  • I can't believe that people actually think that the Stats are what ruined HoN.
                    The fact that the community could do whatever they liked and S2 was too afraid to ban all the idiots (which they are starting with now) was what destroyed it.

                    The stats have not much to do with it.
                    As I've read several times these last pages:
                    Competition is a human nature. I recall what I've said a few pages ago:
                    Not having stats isn't a solution.
                    Not having stats takes away the casual competition between players.

                    Playing the game a few times just for fun is what casual players do. They don't need stats.
                    Why should they care if there were stats anyway then if they only care about the fun? I don't really understand that logic.

                    I also don't know why people have made themselves believe that every HoN game they ever played was a pure horror simply because of stats. That is bullcrap. Scenarious which people choose as arguements happened in maybe 1% of all the total games you had played.

                    Solution for the casual competition in Dota2:
                    There must be an MMR player ladder, stats aren't really needed for a player ladder.

                    The way people talk in this thread is like "if stats were implied it would kill dota2"
                    I'd say: If stats were implied it would improve dota2 as a game.
                    Like OP said, it is boring to win in this game. Winning / losing doesn't do a damn difference. Why should I be motivated to become better?

                    If stats aren't implied, it would kill dota2 over a longer period of time.

                    I think that if stats are implied, dota2 would do as fine as HoN was doing during their beta. (which was great, best gaming time i've had in my life so far)
                    Why shouldn't it? I believe very many people had the same expierience as I did during the HoN beta.
                    HoN is still doing fine. Why shouldn't dota2 be doing fine if stats were implied? Stats have a better effect on the game in a long run.

                    Currently the games are almost exactly the same as in HoN. Even though HoN has stats, and dota2 doesn't.
                    But the dota2 beta just lacks that huge element which makes you want to become better. Which is obviously Stats and a visible MMR / player ladder.

                    Anyway, splitting the community into different game modes would be a pretty ok solution imo.
                    This community is large enough and dota is flexible enough to withstand it.

                    About the test Irrelevante was talking about:
                    Give me samples of like 5 different people in the high / mid / low tier. Not an average, this will only be so I have an glimpse over what an average kind of looks like.
                    Be kind and try to find people that almost only solo queue

                    I want APM, GPM, Most Heroes played, Win%, Amount of games Played and a KD:A (kill death assist ratio) from people with at least 100 games
                    Last edited by ranaki; 07-07-2012, 09:13 AM.
                    Never underestimate the power of the masses.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ranaki View Post
                      I can't believe that people actually think that the Stats are what ruined HoN.
                      The fact that the community could do whatever they liked and S2 was too afraid to ban all the idiots (which they are starting with now) was what destroyed it.

                      The stats have not much to do with it.
                      Your word against ours.
                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      As I've read several times these last pages:
                      Competition is a human nature.
                      You only read what you want to hear. Quit avoiding questions and stop posting the same baseless arguments. If you want to reflect that on me, quote everything what I said which was completely baseless. For god sake, you're even using this ymi2gr84u guy his argument about "competition" in pubs. You didn't even read about what real competition is. Start a team and join a league.
                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      I recall what I've said a few pages ago:
                      Not having stats isn't a solution.
                      No it is a solution, if you take away the means of baseless flaming then you have a solution
                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Not having stats takes away the casual competition between players.
                      Competition between strangers with whom you probably never play again. The most amount of time I got into a match with the same person was 4 over 415 games and I didn't even notice.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Playing the game a few times just for fun is what casual players do. They don't need stats.
                      Nobody needs meaningless stats which can only be interpreted wrong.
                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Why should they care if there were stats anyway then if they only care about the fun? I don't really understand that logic.
                      Cos it's a teamgame! Holy shit man, how many times do you miss the point. Everything your teammates do, affects your game. Do you understand that it can diminish the fun for someone if someone starts flaming because he has "bad" stats.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      I also don't know why people have made themselves believe that every HoN game they ever played was a pure horror simply because of stats. That is bullcrap. Scenarious which people choose as arguements happened in maybe 1% of all the total games you had played.
                      You really think this many people pull all of their experiences out of their ass? Are you also a Holocaust denier?

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Solution for the casual competition in Dota2:
                      There must be an MMR player ladder, stats aren't really needed for a player ladder.
                      Competition is team based.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      The way people talk in this thread is like "if stats were implied it would kill dota2"
                      I'd say: If stats were implied it would improve dota2 as a game.
                      By giving more means to flame other people? And yes, I know your answer: You just got to ban the idiots. Well guess what, how many times when you reported someone, you got the message which thanks you for reporting?
                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Like OP said, it is boring to win in this game. Winning / losing doesn't do a damn difference. Why should I be motivated to become better?
                      To win more and get matched with even better opponents? As you admit, you play for stats... but it wouldn't affect your play as you said earlier.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      If stats aren't implied, it would kill dota2 over a longer period of time.
                      Your word against mine. If this was the case, this whole thread was flooding with proponents, instead more opponents post here.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      I think that if stats are implied, dota2 would do as fine as HoN was doing during their beta. (which was great, best gaming time i've had in my life so far)
                      Why shouldn't it? I believe very many people had the same expierience as I did during the HoN beta.
                      HoN is still doing fine. Why shouldn't dota2 be doing fine if stats were implied? Stats have a better effect on the game in a long run.
                      No, HoN isn't doing that great even now I got a decent KDR of 1,06 and still get called noob by one who has 1,09 KDR. That's the reality. And I know you are talking about MMR but you're in the same fucking match and as such you have the same MMR. Showing MMR is so redundant.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      But the dota2 beta just lacks that element which makes you want to become better. Which is obviously Stats and a visible MMR / player ladder.
                      No please just answer the question I have asked before, and since you haven't made any effort to read any posts who oppose this idea, I'll ask again:
                      What is it in the number that you see in your stats make you realize you want to get better. What do you think when you see a KDR of 1,00?

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      Anyway, splitting the community into different game modes would be a pretty ok solution imo.
                      This community is large enough and dota is flexible enough to withstand it.
                      There are people who wait 5 minutes for a match as it is, splitting it would greatly harm that group.

                      Originally posted by ranaki
                      About the test Irrelevante was talking about:
                      Give me samples of like 5 different people in the high / mid / low tier. Not an average, this will only be so I have an glimpse over what an average kind of looks like.
                      Be kind and try to find people that almost only solo queue

                      I want APM, GPM, Most Heroes played, Win%, Amount of games Played and a KD:A (kill death assist ratio) from people with at least 100 games
                      I am really eager to hear the results

                      Now make sure, before you post again that you have actually read this and please answer every question and quote everything independently and pay attention to every aspect

                      Comment


                      • Also, any kind of kill stat only encourages people who are dominating to prolong the end of a game by fountain farming. Teams with pudge/sniper/etc. would get their KDR and ADR boosted. The whole idea of this system is broken.

                        Comment


                        • Stats are a bad idea but an visual ranking system would be good. Some incentive to win at all would be good. Items are currently only an incentive to end the game as fast as possible, regardless if you lose or win.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GMan View Post
                            Also, any kind of kill stat only encourages people who are dominating to prolong the end of a game by fountain farming. Teams with pudge/sniper/etc. would get their KDR and ADR boosted. The whole idea of this system is broken.
                            you are right
                            now that we dont have stats nobody is fountain camping

                            what does that even mean? never saw that in action

                            Comment


                            • how has this thread lasted so long. my god. its like the longest running thread on the forums with the worst rating. JUST STOP POSTING IN IT PEOPLE.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                You only read what you want to hear. Quit avoiding questions and stop posting the same baseless arguments. If you want to reflect that on me, quote everything what I said which was completely baseless. For god sake, you're even using this ymi2gr84u guy his argument about "competition" in pubs. You didn't even read about what real competition is. Start a team and join a league.
                                Playing in pub games is also a sort of competition.
                                It's a way easier to create a good team if this game would have proper stats. This way people could actually show something that could determine thier skill level a bit more specific than nothing at all.
                                If someone would want to create a team and makes a forum post about it for example I think it would be a bit more fair if he could choose the people that actually seem good instead of having to pick random people to go for a test game.
                                It doesn't natter how you put it, if this game doesn't have stats it will be a way harder to actually create a good team.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                No it is a solution, if you take away the means of baseless flaming then you have a solution
                                Baseless flaming already occours. So why should stats make it even more worse?
                                It works in HoN, why shouldn't it work here?
                                I've had as many people flaming with baseless arguements in dota2 as in HoN. Stats, no stats, there's not a difference. people always find a way to flame. Why are people that want stats getting punished because of something that also occours without them?

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                Competition between strangers with whom you probably never play again. The most amount of time I got into a match with the same person was 4 over 415 games and I didn't even notice.
                                If a stranger is good I might want to play with him again.
                                Stats do help there as well.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                Nobody needs meaningless stats which can only be interpreted wrong.
                                They are no meaningless if you are able to read them properly.
                                The more detailed the stats are, the less they can be interpreted wrong. This is also how statistics work in real life which is very important for economy and stuff for NORMAL PEOPLE.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                Cos it's a teamgame! Holy shit man, how many times do you miss the point. Everything your teammates do, affects your game. Do you understand that it can diminish the fun for someone if someone starts flaming because he has "bad" stats.
                                Ignoring them works doesn't it?
                                There are already several flamings going on about how bad people are, nothing different from HoN. And you say the game is fine?
                                That is the point I am talking about, I don't think it becomes far worse with stats. The flaming could become a little bit worse, but people will tend to become and play better and leave less games.

                                In a teamgame i should also be able to know what my teammates are capable of in order for me to win the game. Should I either rely or them or try to get a good ganking or carry hero in order to win?

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                You really think this many people pull all of their experiences out of their ass? Are you also a Holocaust denier?
                                No I am certainly not a Holocaust denier.
                                But I am very VERY sure of that this community (as well as HoN's community) has an amazing ability to make things sound a way worse than they actually are / were.
                                Be honest with yourself, how often did it happen in HoN that someone flamed your stats and denied you mid? I bet it wasn't even 10 times. (if you played it ofc)
                                Since you probably got butthurt from it you remember it though even after still countless games where that never happened.

                                All I am hearing in this thread is
                                "omfg my stats got flamed one time a while ago by someone I'll never play with again anyway! NO STATS GODDAMMIT"

                                As you said yourself, why should it matter if you have stats or not if the people you are playing with never will see you again anyway? You won't see them either again anyway

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                Competition is team based.
                                MMO games are all about competition between players.
                                Most of the people play just to win and to become better than others.

                                Real competitions are something else,
                                but in order to easier being able to join a competitive team it would really help if they would be able to see how you are playing in average.
                                At least the stats of your last 100 games should show.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                By giving more means to flame other people? And yes, I know your answer: You just got to ban the idiots. Well guess what, how many times when you reported someone, you got the message which thanks you for reporting?
                                I don't often report people because they often don't break any rules so far of what I am aware of.
                                I've gotten back a few "thanks for reporting" messages.

                                People already flame each others scores in their current game as well. What do you want to do? Hide the stats of the current game as well? according to this thread this should solve flaming a bit more. sure it will probably work, but I hope you get my point that it wouldn't be good for the game, especially in the higher game where it is important to know how many kills the opposing team has for example.


                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                To win more and get matched with even better opponents? As you admit, you play for stats... but it wouldn't affect your play as you said earlier.
                                I play to win because the win% is the most important stat.
                                I don't care much about the other stats, they just reflect on the average way I play. Which is why stats are good, since if I find myself that I am losing a lot I would love to compare my stats with people that are better than me, watching their replays and my replays and then become better in order to win more.

                                It is sad when people go and do nothing because they don't want to ruin their score. That is also occouring in this game and it is the same as trying to protect your KD. like I said earlier, the solution to that would be to hide in-game stats as well.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                Your word against mine. If this was the case, this whole thread was flooding with proponents, instead more opponents post here.
                                I don't think a lot of people are aware about what is going on in this forum.
                                In game surveys that pop up when you open the game lead to that people visit the forum more often in order to see what is going on.

                                I see fewer proponents than opponents here yes, but like usual people don't really think about the consequenses about what they want.
                                There is no right answer about this question, because both sides have their pro's and con's but I find that not having stats will ruin the game in a long run. It didn't ruin HoN so why should it ruin dota2?

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                No, HoN isn't doing that great even now I got a decent KDR of 1,06 and still get called noob by one who has 1,09 KDR. That's the reality. And I know you are talking about MMR but you're in the same fucking match and as such you have the same MMR. Showing MMR is so redundant.
                                Happens in dota2 as well. people flaming in-game scores, people flaming your wins and most played heroes. Nothing new and it doesn't really hurt anyone will it?
                                I bet if there were to come dota3 people would cry about "don't show how many games you have won, it ruined the dota2 community"

                                As I said: be honest with yourself, how often does the stat flaming actually occour and has real consequenses other than someone just pointing it out? If you really are that stingy with people pointing out something that is bad with you, I feel sorry for you.

                                Anyway, MMR is the most important statistic imo. It shows what bracket you play in. High mmr means you are good, better than people with lower mmr.
                                Why should I be able to see my own MMR and others? There are several reasons:

                                - Being able to create a good player ladder. People who want to become better just want to climb it which means that they want to win more games and simply become better because they have the motivation for it.

                                - If you happen to randomly get queued with people that have far lower / higher mmr than you it will be easier for people to report these problems to valve so they get fixed.

                                - MMR should be visible because you might be playing with a friend who has far lower MMR than you. You might want to play in a different mode then, in order to not drag him into a match where he can't do anything.

                                - People would get to learn how MM balances the teams as well. There more the community knows about their own game, the better. As in an earlier point, it can always be improved.

                                - People with higher MMR are often more turstoworthy. Their advices about how someone should play in order to win might be more correct than someones who just started playing the game.

                                - You will have different brackets. MMR shows you where you actually belong. people can create guides for different ways of playing for every bracket in order to become better.

                                - You will get a goal. Once you reached a certain MMR and achieved your goal you will be pretty happy.

                                - Prices could be given out to the people with the highest mmr in every bracket / league. This could create weekly community tournaments which also encourages people to climb in the MMR and somply become better.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                No please just answer the question I have asked before, and since you haven't made any effort to read any posts who oppose this idea, I'll ask again:
                                What is it in the number that you see in your stats make you realize you want to get better. What do you think when you see a KDR of 1,00?
                                When I see someone with an 1,00 I think that it is actually a little bit above average.
                                (due to creep kills and neutral deaths the average KD is like 0.96 last time I checked, at least in HoN)

                                I have replied this question often:
                                KD doesn't matter in most cases. Flaming someones KD is just as stupid as flaming how many games someone has won or flaming in-game scores.

                                What makes me want to become better is, as I said if I find myself losing a lot lately.
                                Then I go and compare my stats with someone elses that I find plays a way better than me and compare. If he has more apm than me, fine I will become faster. If he has higher KD than me, I will try to not die so often.
                                Statistics give a better view of someones skill than nothing at all.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                There are people who wait 5 minutes for a match as it is, splitting it would greatly harm that group.
                                The game is currenty in beta and not everyone has access to it.
                                The queue times will of course become shorter once the game is public. It is then possible to split the community so that people can play with other people that have the same interests.
                                Since you still will be able to play with the other part of the community as well whenever you like, this shouldn't harm much.

                                Originally posted by Half-Minute Man View Post
                                I am really eager to hear the results
                                As I said in earlier posts, I cannot tell that my "guesses" will be as accurate as in HoN for example because of my lack of knowledge about what is average in every bracket. I will have to outgo from the samples.

                                PS:
                                I really hope that you don't get a wrong image of me.
                                I agree with a lot of points regarding why we should not have stats but as I said, not having stats doesn't solve anything or make any problem better and it could possibly ruin the game in a long run since not having stats will chase away "hard-core" gamers that want to become competitive.

                                Sorry if my posts are offending in some way. I am still trying to bring this discussion foreward.
                                Last edited by ranaki; 07-08-2012, 05:22 AM.
                                Never underestimate the power of the masses.

                                Comment

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