Forum Rules

  • No flaming or derogatory remarks, directly or through insinuation.
  • No discussion, sharing or referencing illegal software such as hacks, keygen, cracks and pirated software.
  • No offensive contents, including but not limited to, racism, gore or pornography.
  • No excessive spam/meme, i.e. copious one liners in a short period of time, typing with all caps or posting meme responses (text/image).
  • No trolling, including but not limited to, flame incitation, user provocation or false information distribution.
  • No link spamming or signature advertisements for content not specific to Dota 2.
  • No Dota 2 key requests, sell, trade etc.
  • You may not create multiple accounts for any purpose, including ban evasion, unless expressly permitted by a moderator.

  • Please search before posting. One thread per issue. Do not create another thread if there is an existing one already.
  • Before posting anything, make sure you check out all sticky threads (e.g., this). Do not create new threads about closed ones.
  • It is extremely important that you post in correct forum section.

  • Balance discussion only in Misc.
  • All art related (such as hero model) feedbacks go to Art Feedback Forum.
  • All matchmaking feedback should go here: Matchmaking Feedback
  • All report/low priority issues should go here: Commend/Report/Ban Feedback
  • No specific workshop item feedback. These should go to workshop page of that item.
  • When posting in non-bugs section (such as this), use [Bugs], [Discussion] or [Suggestion] prefix in your thread name.

In case you object some action by a moderator, please contact him directly through PM and explain your concerns politely. If you are still unable to resolve the issue, contact an administrator. Do not drag these issues in public.

All rules are meant to augment common sense, please use them when not conflicted with aforementioned policies.
See more
See less

[Bane] Rework Nightmare End sub-spell into a single-target ability

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Bane] Rework Nightmare End sub-spell into a single-target ability

    There are several issues with the Nightmare End sub-spell which make it clunky to use and sometimes even completely unreliable.

    Current issues with Nightmare End:

    1. It ends all ongoing nightmares. This means, when you apply Nightmare on multiple enemies with the help of your scepter upgrade, you cannot wake up a specific unit. You either wake them all up, or none of them. The only way to wake a single unit up currently is by dealing damage to it, which is not reliable, since you may not have brain sap (your only damage source) ready and you surely do not want to use your ulti for that. So you basically have no control over your aghs Nightmares.

    2. It does not appear when Nightmare is not cast. This means, if only your ultimate applies Nightmare on enemies, you have no way to wake any of them up, because the sub-spell does not appear. It only appears when casting Nightmare. So to get it, you first have to nightmare a unit and then you can use the sub-spell to wake units up.

    3. Lotus Orb can cause you to basically lose the sub-spell for the rest of the game. Getting Nightmare reflected can completely bug out your sub-spell so that you do not have it at all.

    3. You cannot use Nightmare twice before the first one is removed. This is because the sub-spell replaces the main spell whenever it gets cast, so that you cannot nightmare multiple enemies.

    Thise videos shows the current issues in action

    Proposed solution:

    Turn Nightmare End into a single-target ability and keep it always available in a 5th ability slot. This allows you to:

    1. Wake up single units, making his Scepter upgrade more viable and much better to use.

    2. Allows you to wake up nightmared units even when you didn't cast Nightmare, since the sub-spell would be available at all times.

    3. It allows you to cast multiple Nightmares, since the ability won't get replaced by a sub-spell anymore.

    Properties it should have:

    1. Castable while disabled (like current one)
    2. No cast time (like current one)
    3. No range limit, global cast range (similar to current one)
    4. Does not require Bane to face the target (like Kunkka's torrent)
    5. Can be cast on spell immune and invulnerable units (because 1. aghs Nightmare pierces spell immunity and 2. so that you can immediately end nightmares and don't have to wait for the 1 sec invulnerability to expire, like the current one)

    Also, to keep people who like the current sub-spell happy, another bonus suggestion: When Bane is not affected by Nightmare, double-tapping it should end all ongoing nightmares. If he is affected by Nightmare, it should wake up Bane only.

    Here is a rough example of how it could work

    Last edited by bu3ny; 03-19-2017, 11:32 AM.
    Please, just call me buny.

  • #2
    I like the idea of being able to dispel a nightmare of choice, instead of only simply all of them.

    While I like the basic idea, some properties about this spell-like ability should make it diffrent from an actual spell, I'm mainly thinking about the interactions with Rubick.

    The instant and noninterruptible factors would allow Bane to negate the effectiveness of spell-steal on him by a considerable amount (by giving rubick Nightmare 99% of the time unless he's literally frame-perfect in his timing if I read the changes correctly). I propose that this effect would not be spell-stealable (instead, Rubick gets to steal whatever spell cast before the series of Nightmare's End(s)). Also, in order to keep Nightmare's effectiveness, Bane should not universally be able to dispel Nightmare. In any other cases, any game with Bane, Rubick, and Nightmare stolen will result in no nightmares ever, instead of both players using the spell, as both players have the ability to cancel eachother's nightmares instantly. If you've ever fought for a courier with your ally, you may realize that this is not good design. I propose Bane should only be able to dispel Nightmares for which he is the originating caster, like he currently can. If Bane's Nightmare is overridden by Rubick's, or vice versa, the originating caster changes from Bane to Rubick, or vice versa, changing who can dispel it. This, too, is current functionality.

    Footnote with a nod towards Ability Draft: Abilities like Nightmare's End (the new version) and Techies' Detonate that are no-cooldown (or very low cooldown), no cast animation, and no-mana-cost should not count as spells towards abilities like 'Overload', 'Aftershock', and 'Fiery Soul'; these can result in some broken things (where you can spam a key to repeatedly deal damage and/or stun players near you, or force maximum overload/fiery soul benefit without paying anything for it).


    • #3
      ^ The player-restriction of the sub-spell is something I thought about but couldn't decide on. On one end, restricting it to the player's nightmares only would prevent an enemy Rubick from immediately ending your Nightmares (and vice versa). On the other end, it is fair, because they can do it to each other. I listed this as a current issue as well. Rubick can end Bane's nightmares already anyway, so keeping it like it is won't change anything in that regard.

      The best solution in my opinion would be to restrict it to Nightmares cast by the player only + Nightmares on the hero itself. So this way, if Bane puts asleep an ally of Rubick, Rubick cannot end it. But if Bane puts Rubick asleep, he can end it (and vice versa).

      Also, it is a sub-spell, so by default, it should not count as a spell cast for stuff like magic stick. I didn't mention this because I though it's too obvious and doesn't need mention.

      As for ability draft, I just ignore that mode until it gets revamped. It's such a huge mess, using that as reason to limit the default game mode is bad.
      Please, just call me buny.