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  • #16
    Originally posted by cre View Post
    Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players.
    The bold and underlined words pretty much sums up my experience of Matchmaking recently.
    It's about which team having more bad apples.

    I do believe that mmr brackets exists. During my days of solo queue, I experience poor quality teammates and my wins is always stagnant at +/-3-4.
    After that I gave up solo queue and added players which I've played with who are good.
    Stacked with them and now my wins is +/-20-22.
    Last edited by BenSkysong; 03-19-2012, 09:01 PM.
    Steam Community :: ID :: Fate

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    • #17
      Originally posted by cre View Post
      Sorry if I misrepresented your view, I latched on to a few key words you said and ran with it, my apologies.

      To answer your question, if the matchmaking made more accurate match-ups for better game play? 100% absolutely, I'd take the longer queue.

      Waiting an additional 5 minutes to have (near) guaranteed playable games for 35m-60m is definitely worth it. I'm not sure anyone would disagree. There is no plus side to having a faster queue but worse quality game. Dota games take a long time to play compared to other competitive games (sc2 for example) people open dota and expect to play at least an hour. Being rushed into a bad game with little to no chance to win and dragging out a miserable loss for 50m is NOT worth getting into a game faster.
      We aren't saving anyone's time by having a 5m faster queue, they already invested the ~1hr to play at least 1 game, that 1 game should be as fair and enjoyable as possible. Dota isn't a game where you can just queue up, bang out a game, queue up and grind out the ladder. Being stuck in a game where the players skill range is so varied makes the game an unenjoyable mess for 35m-60m and is about the most helpless and worse feeling in the gaming world. The game couldn't be more dreadful when those situations happen, and it seems to be extremely frequent.

      It also seems as of now (perhaps because of the small playerbase which causes it's own issues) that the mm just tries to average out the teams, or if you're winning to much instead of the skill level of the game increasing (playing better people) you just seem to get worse teammates that the game doesn't really expect you to be able to carry.

      Quoting a section of a post I made earlier states this observations.

      "I find it generally works like SC2 where it would try and match 50/50, the problem with this over sc2 is that it seems to just add awful (or new, not to be rude) people to your games, players you likely cannot carry, (not by playing a carry mind you) which just makes the game play very poor. It's almost as if it's like 'you've been winning a lot lately, here are 3 new/bad players with little to no game knowledge, good luck winning.' Until you're balanced out again.

      I've had huge swings in dota 2, from +50 games over .500 and 60%+ win rate, 20-4 streaks duo queue with my friend, to as low as of now 52% win after losing a TON of games lately. I know it sounds elitist but 95% of my loses are really of low fault of my own and almost directly related to awful, awful teammates. I don't claim to be a professional but I've played a lot of dota1, hon and now dota2 (700 hours since Nov 11th when I got my key). It seems obvious this is the system because the games haven't been harder as I've been winning more, like in sc2, you'll just get stomped by better opponents. This would be understandable, if I had been winning for so long that now my MMR is too high, I'm playing people much better than myself and I'm getting stomped. The game quality has gone wayyy down if anything. Games are almost always decided by which team has the bigger throwers, rather than which team is playing better dota. This is frustrating. "

      Of course the games have improved in skill since when I first installed the beta but there seems to be some stagnation once you get to the higher levels of the mmr brackets (if these exist). The game play isn't getting any better, I don't find my opponents to be any more challenging or skilled (other than the occasional pro, or well known player you get matched up with/against) but rather which team is allocated more 'worse' players. Every game is either a stomping for a win, or a stomping for a loss. I feel as though what seems to be the case lately is if I duo queue with a friend the game gives us really awful teammates, that we have little chance to carry and some how now that game is balanced. Dire has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, Radiant has 2-3 decent players and 2 bad ones, whichever teams 'bad' players are worse generally get slammed. I don't like this system at all and hope it's only a by product of the player base and not valve's intention to have an 'avg' team skill of 3good2bad, 4good1bad, whatever, but rather 10 more or less equally skilled players. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but the system in place now (I know a lot of the qualms I have are with player base) is extremely aggravating.

      I can't understand how 1 game is vs. GoSu/coL pros, HOWDOUGETSLICED, Larry Appletime and other well known players, then the next 3 are people with 100 or less wins who don't know how lanes work or about TP mechanics.


      p.s. i appreciate your response, I love dota and hope for it to be the next big esports (move over sc2!) sorry if anything of this comes off rude, I don't mean it to be, I'm just passionate about dota!
      That's ok - misunderstandings happen.

      If you don't mind sharing you should PM me your account name and I'll go back through some of your recent games then we can talk about how balanced they were. This can help us calibrate our perceptions of game quality. I don't want to do this exercise if you rage or give up too early in games since that produces very stompy games. ( I don't know your account name so I'm not trying to insinuate anything

      Anyway - you gave me a big wall of text so here are my responses in no particular order.

      - High skill games are definitely an area that will benefit as we get more players. It's also an area has had issues with match times in the past so I'm sensitive to how long this group needs to wait.

      - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.

      - Building on the previous point, even with good matchmaking there are plenty of things that can go wrong:
      * Being conterpicked or having a bad team comp (overdependence on farm, no heroes that can stop a push, lack of DPS, bad teamfight, etc.)
      * Allowing teammates to lose a lane early
      * Luck
      * Natural variations in individual performance
      * People trying a new hero or strategy

      - We don't enforce a 50-50 win rate (Maybe we should?) instead we always try to make the best match possible. I'm always happy when I see someone with a win rate close to 50% though since it means that we haven't been skewing one way or the other in giving matches that were too hard or too easy. I totally agree with your desire to have fewer stomps though.

      - We don't try to match high skill players with low skill players instead we try to get 10 people that fit together the best. Parties can sometimes create a very big gap in skill on a team though and are generally the reason for anything that seems really wacky. Remember too that people people will always have good games and bad games so that person that seems terrible might just be having an off day instead.

      - The outcome of a games is determined more by the best person on a team rather than the worst player. My assumption was originally the same as yours but I had to change my mind once I saw the stats showing otherwise.

      Cheers,
      Eric

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by EricTams View Post
        - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.
        This was the Defense final where for some reason, Na'Vi decided to pick AM in the first 2 games and lost by a really big margin on both games, then stomped the next 2 games

        Since Eric is checking out this thread I will share my last game. I've waited about 7 minutes on EU server for this. The 7 wins guy is tyrano

        I have about 510 wins and 460 losses and I got into a game against a guy that only had 7 wins!! only 7!!! But it didn't matter since he was a good player. The problem was with my own team... a Russian-Solo-Mid-Please-Mirana who just fed and ended the game 0-8-0, and a guy that last picked Pudge to go solo long lane (obviously ended with a bad score...about 2-9-0). If the machmaking took the 7 wins guy for a noob and decided to put more noobs on my team to compensate, I believe it acted the wrong way

        This is the game if you want to check it out


        Also a question, how many brackets are in the high skill matches? Because I can queue at the same time as friends that are good players... but they get matched against famous players and get lots of viewers, but I get stuck and get bad players when I queue at the same time. And when I check all my games are high skill.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Luffydude; 03-20-2012, 11:33 AM.

        Simple and obvious things that should get fixed/added asap: SCOREBOARD, Ingame friend list, Different Ping for Roshan, Add Notes to Players, Accept Button while tabbed

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        • #19
          Actually I believe that Tyrano and Haiko are pros - anyone know if they are playing on an official team?

          Just curious - was there a party on your side?

          Comment


          • #20
            no idea, but googling "tyrano dota" comes up with a bunch of old DotA maphacks, lol

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by EricTams View Post
              Actually I believe that Tyrano and Haiko are pros - anyone know if they are playing on an official team?

              Just curious - was there a party on your side?
              I don't think so, Tyrano has only 7 wins and Haiko spend half the game saying we suck. I don't believe pros become so proud of themselves by beating up feeders

              Also I don't think there was a party on our side since Sven went top with morph instead of going with the guy above him (mirana) or the guy below him (pudge)

              and I think you missed
              Also a question, how many brackets are in the high skill matches? Because I can queue at the same time as friends that are good players... but they get matched against famous players and get lots of viewers, but I get stuck and get bad players when I queue at the same time. And when I check all my games are high skill.
              Last edited by Luffydude; 03-20-2012, 12:26 PM.

              Simple and obvious things that should get fixed/added asap: SCOREBOARD, Ingame friend list, Different Ping for Roshan, Add Notes to Players, Accept Button while tabbed

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Luffydude View Post
                Also a question, how many brackets are in the high skill matches? Because I can queue at the same time as friends that are good players... but they get matched against famous players and get lots of viewers, but I get stuck and get bad players when I queue at the same time. And when I check all my games are high skill.
                Some of the pros play anonymously otherwise I bet you would recognize more names.

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                • #23
                  I just wanted to add that I selected myself as a beginner when I first launched dota 2 because I came from a LoL scene and was completely new to dota scene, so I was able to learn basic mechanics of dota fairly quickly. My question is: how difficult is it to get out of the beginners bracket to the next bracket?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Takomancer View Post
                    I just wanted to add that I selected myself as a beginner when I first launched dota 2 because I came from a LoL scene and was completely new to dota scene, so I was able to learn basic mechanics of dota fairly quickly. My question is: how difficult is it to get out of the beginners bracket to the next bracket?
                    as far as i know.. the 3 options when you first start will place you in low - mid - or high. im guessing this since i picked the middle one and was placed in mid.

                    I played 3 games in mid and then i got into high. so i it shouldnt take too long time to get out of a tier you shouldnt be in.

                    But the question remains, is there hidden brackets within each tier?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by EricTams View Post
                      Was the player with 300 wins partied with the two new players? A lot of the weirdness happens because people make crazy parties - a very common instance being an experienced player teaching his friends how to play.

                      Typically the trade off in matchmaking is wait time versus match quality. We could always try and slow down the match time in an attempt to provide higher accuracy matches but this will get better naturally as we add more players so I'd rather keep match times snappy.
                      I'm one of the people who queues with friends of different skill levels, sometimes playing solo and other times(most of the time,lately) playing in parties of any number up to 5. For the sake of leaving my personal emotions out of this post I will speak only with the facts I have about problems I think this creates.This is from experience of about 1000 total games in the beta. Sorry for the wall of text.

                      I queue with a friend of mine(If you'd like to check further, I can pm you names) who's a total beginner in dota, but not to video games, and selected the easiest level when he started. I'm playing on high bracket, and most of the time we're put in medium level games (works as it should). My friend doesn't know what all heros spells do so if he solos a lane he's going to get creamed and possibly cause a landslide in our disadvantage. Luckily this has never happened because this particular friend is very smart and doesn't try to swim in waters too deep, but I can't say most people are like that.

                      Another problem that can occur when I queue with that friend is that I don't know what background our other team mates are coming from (which is a problem extended to global when the search range grows a bit too large). We're probably on skill level medium, but are our other team mates low-low-high skilled? If there's more newbies like my friend, I should instruct them on buying regen so they can stay on their lane and level up--but I can't do that. Occasionally, I'm bound to solo mid against a low skilled person. I'm not the kind of guy who will not kill enemies- I only give advice to them after I've already had my way (I'm taking the liberty to assume it's almost everyone who would do it- I know this sucks and I don't do it on a LAN at the net cafe, but in a random game in the internet I'll crush everyone I can, because others do the same to my team if they get the opportunity).

                      It's fun going 25( or more)/1 but just happens too often when the skill/rating disparities between team members is too high and it's not good (you realise that mostly when you're on the receiving end). I am estimating about 1 out of 3 games I've played with huskar(and some other ganking heroes like Pudge/Bs) have ended with me storming the enemy base at minute 20 with 15k gold worth of farm and aegis. Of course this sometimes happens against me as well. Eventually that's something that will happen (when you have a great game you might end up steamrolling the enemy , ok) but feasting on the newbie is too common.

                      Onward to another scenario, where I'm queueing with a large stack of friends, which are medium to high, medium and medium to low/low leveled. We're queueing as 4 (on the high bracket most of the time) and we get that one guy. He goes mid, gets destroyed and gives up about 10 mins into the game at which point it's impossible for us to win. Then some games later, we queue again as 4 and the 5th guy which we don't know goes mid again with night stalker, destroys their solo and chain kills every enemy in the map to a disgusting point. I know our team is made of people of different skill levels but how are we supposed to lane to get a fair game? The 5th person could be lower than our lowest player or higher than our highest.

                      I bet the majority of people in low bracket don't enjoy getting chain killed by someone who's just way better in a lane. Even though I'm a very experienced player I've felt that myself. A long time ago I middled some sven (as pudge) who was just really really good and he first blooded me, took all the runes and killed everyone in the map. My team was flaming me, and while there's no excuse for that I'd very much appreciate if I could know he was however much higher rated than me and let someone else equally high rated face him. On the other hand, I'd very much appreciate it if this didn't happen with a lowbie from my team soloing against a pro from the enemy, or the reverse.

                      Newbie against pro in solo lanes has to stop. Give us an indication of people's matchmaking rating at start of the game so we can organize better. This worked well in warcraft 3 random team ladder games, which were very similar to dota like games(Had to work as a team, soloing didn't get you anywhere). They had levels that indicated player skill levels there, and everyone could see everyone's level at the loading screen, so if there was a level 30 guy he could help the level 8 ones etc.


                      Another different problem that applies only when you queue as a stack is the way the system handles it. I don't mind the matchmaking being a bit more loose in order to get shorter queues (I hate waiting in the queue) but here's a problem I encounter the last days, when I've played an awful lot of games as a 5 stack: Sometimes we'll get matched against 3+2 players and we'll destroy them only because they didn't organise themselves well/had fights whereas we as a 5 stack, even if not an actual team and having varied skill levels, can organize our laning way better than them.

                      It'd be great if there was some indication players queued together, so it's obvious from the beginning that they might want to lane together etc.

                      Lastly, sometimes we'll just face randoms or a stack of 2+ 3 randoms as a 5 stack. I can't know if this is a fact because people they could just be lying because they lost when I ask them, but if it's possible to match 5 stacks against complete randoms I'd just take the longer queue- I don't enjoy this and it's not fair.

                      Actually my opinion is that the indication of people queueing together should be obvious to the enemy as well, so at least they know what they have to deal with (in the unfortunate occasion we get matched against randoms/ lower stacks)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I often had to sit through 15-30 minute queues in HoN because I was in the top 5% of the MMR. While this might sound bad, it was actually much better than the system currently in place in Dota 2. Games ended up being a lot more balanced and you didn't get that one sided stomp that seems so common in this. I don't know what other people's experience with the matches in Dota 2 are, but I can safely say that the amount of games that were lopsided for one team, whether it be mine or the opponent's, far outweighs the amount of balanced games that had no clear winner in the early stages. Perhaps there needs to be a choice when queueing on if you want even games or faster queue, giving people the option to do either.

                        I should also remind people that games can last well into the 60 minute range so 15 minutes isn't an outrageous wait to ensure a quality game. Quality over quantity is a good motto, even for playing competitive video games!
                        Last edited by SouP; 03-20-2012, 04:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd hate to wait into 15-30 min queues in any case

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I share the same frustrating issue in Matchmaking last night.
                            I think I'm in the lower tier high skilled bracket, because I've never seen people in Luffydude's bracket.
                            Why I said lower-mid tier high skilled bracket is because my stack have been matched with competitive players before.
                            Those players are MYM Singapore players, and also my win ratio is just 55.89% not as high as Luffydude.
                            I assume those highest level pro players are those always featured in Live Match.
                            Therefore, I believe there's a few sub-brackets in the High Skilled bracket.

                            So my situation is as below.
                            Opponents were familiar names and my stack consists of me and 3 other friends.
                            Then this sniper came along with only 2 wins. Which means this is his 3rd game.

                            Not only he didn't listen to our strategy, he completely did not talk or communicate with us.
                            He went to our Radiant bot lane to Auto attack which costs our primary carry Clinkz to lose farm.
                            Me and Clinkz player always lane together and we do really good. First blood is always ours.

                            This Sniper player ruins bot lane then tp-ed to top lane to died like np np.
                            Match ID: 8117015.

                            Me and my 3 other friends wins are as follows: 198+108+329+188+2 (the Sniper).
                            Enemies: 44+71+110+74+66

                            Eventhough Sniper initially had 100% win rate because both of his only two games he was in the winning team.
                            I don't think Matchmaking should group us up together due to win rate.
                            As he might still be a new player to Dota 2.
                            Steam Community :: ID :: Fate

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                            • #29
                              I'd be interested to know how much of a difference the 3 options make when you first start the game, if I choose the lowest bracket and completely stomp how long does the system take to work out a more accurate skill level.

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                              • #30
                                Tyrano is a high MMR HoN player.

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