[Suggestion] Dota like online poker

[Nemozini]

d.phoenixxx
Please read up on MTGO first before spouting nonsense.

The way I see you talk, you are arrogant and extremely conceited. MTGO is a platform that has been around ever since 2002 and has been profitable for Wizards since then. Not only that, the average player on MTGO spends a whole $50 USD a year while MTGO itself has over 500,000 registered accounts with 5000-10000 players active daily.

It is my opinion , if you don't agree , you don't need to rage about it. It is not like Valve will do whatever I say. I didn't say MTGO isn't popular , I said it isn't as popular as Dota 2 or Dota in general. "MTGO isn't as popular as dota 2"
No need for name calling , we are supposed to give feedback,suggestion and report bugs during beta test not flame each other.

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I'm not sure how MTGO really works or plays but

Wikipedia
Gambling is also a major international commercial activity, with the legal gambling market totaling an estimated $335 billion in 2009.[4] In other forms, gambling can be conducted with materials which have a value, but aren't real money; for example, games like Pogs or Magic: The Gathering.

It says here its not for real money , not sure if I understand it correctly but its still gambling (at least to some guy on Wikipedia) and what OP suggested that Dota 2 does it with real money too. So regardless what the hell is MTGO . To me , OP sounds like gambling.

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d.phoenixxx
If you do not wish to play for money, then dont. Nobody is forcing you to sign up for tournaments that costs tickets which costs money to buy.

guess you didn't read that.... "I think if this is implemented it should be on a different client/shortcut ... like dota 2 , dota 2 test , dota 2 tournaments, MW2 SP , MW2 MP"

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d.phoenixxx
Furthermore, it is not uncommon for MTGO or even Poker Superstars to occasionally have "zero entry" tournaments with prizes. What this means is that everyone is allowed to join without paying anything.

Tickets, aside from being able to be bought through direct cash, can also be earned or rewarded through long time play.

If you think something like Tickets is gambling, then Xbox 360 Microsoft Points, and even WoW Gold and points can be considered gambling.

I don't and didn't consider these as gambling in my post. "Your suggestion to me sounds purely about money thus why I see it as gambling" ..

Please don't mix buying virtual points or any credit with real money to buy virtual goods as such art , licenses or in game items. NOT a chance to win more money.

Using money directly or indirectly (as in points) for a chance to earn money directly or indirectly (virtual goods that has a real value in $) is gambling IMO.

• Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
• Dictionary

Dota 2 outcome is uncertain IMO. and you can never know how it will turn out , that what makes dota 2 nice and interesting even when some might wonder its the same damn map each time.

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Running the Olympics isn't free and participating in such an event is a return value by itself even if you didn't win anything at the end. Its more like paying an exam fee and failing an exam with the intent to get a good mark AND maybe a scholarship. The exam fee helps prepare the exam and mark it with some money going to scholarship or whatever.

"Unlike real tournaments , where the objective involves obtaining a title/fame AND additional prize (money or not) where most entrance money goes to people managing the tournament, venue and equipment."

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And as for WoW , gambling is not allowed and you will get your account banned. People used to /roll in the main cities for just virtual gold and they used to get a warning with even no real money involved.

[d.phoenixxx]

Based on your Wikipedia quote of "Gambling",

if I assign the value of "time" to it, Im always gambling when I play.
if I assign the value of "national pride and glory" to it, then all Olympic contestees are gambling too.

Furthermore, you have got the idea of "an event with an uncertain outcome" wrong.
If I am directly influencing an event, that event isnt uncertain, it is predictable depending on how much I influence it.
Something that is uncertain is something that you cannot control or influence directly.

Please dont quote Wikipedia as the definitive source of information for word meanings.

It is ok to use Wikipedia as a reference, but not as the "end all". For example, I quoted Wikipedia to give you a basic understanding of the model of MTGO.

[DLRevan]

I think this idea really has merit.

Definitions of gambling aside, I think we can all agree that playing a Dota match is not 'gambling'. So the only important factor is if any country has laws that consider such activities gambling.

Whether MTGO is popular or not has no bearing on its legality. If it is illegal in a particular country, it would not be able to operate, regardless if it had 1 million players or 1 thousand. Its not like MTGO runs off some obscure amateur website, it is a fully realized and commercialized game.

These laws aren't always concrete, but if the 'prize pool' of these tournaments does not have any actual transferable cash, I think it should be quite safe. What could be done is that you pay real cash for 'cash points', or whatever valve wants to call their in-game credit. You use this to buy a entry ticket into one these tournaments. If you win or place in a high ranking, you get more cash points, special cosmetic items, achievements, or whatever, but not real cash.

Even though you don't get 'real' money, I think a lot of people will go for this. The entry fee can be as low as a dollar or even 50 cents in cash points. If the top prize is even as low as something like $20 per player in cash points, I think it is an appealing return. Its also great for Valve as technically, they're taking in 100% cuts of the fees.

I don't think this should be just limited to five or so tournaments per week. If you have an automated system to support this, you can have hundreds of tournaments running everyday, for different skill brackets. Some extra logistics and support would need to be put in, but the return could be enormous, both for Valve and for players (as a gameplay feature, not profit)

[HMAN911]

I think this idea really has merit.

Definitions of gambling aside, I think we can all agree that playing a Dota match is not 'gambling'. So the only important factor is if any country has laws that consider such activities gambling.

Whether MTGO is popular or not has no bearing on its legality. If it is illegal in a particular country, it would not be able to operate, regardless if it had 1 million players or 1 thousand. Its not like MTGO runs off some obscure amateur website, it is a fully realized and commercialized game.

These laws aren't always concrete, but if the 'prize pool' of these tournaments does not have any actual transferable cash, I think it should be quite safe. What could be done is that you pay real cash for 'cash points', or whatever valve wants to call their in-game credit. You use this to buy a entry ticket into one these tournaments. If you win or place in a high ranking, you get more cash points, special cosmetic items, achievements, or whatever, but not real cash.

Even though you don't get 'real' money, I think a lot of people will go for this. The entry fee can be as low as a dollar or even 50 cents in cash points. If the top prize is even as low as something like $20 per player in cash points, I think it is an appealing return. Its also great for Valve as technically, they're taking in 100% cuts of the fees.

I don't think this should be just limited to five or so tournaments per week. If you have an automated system to support this, you can have hundreds of tournaments running everyday, for different skill brackets. Some extra logistics and support would need to be put in, but the return could be enormous, both for Valve and for players (as a gameplay feature, not profit)

But also profit.

[ehtom]

I think this may count as online gambling, which may make it unavailable in some countries/states in US.

All the logistics/legalities aside, sounds like an interesting idea.

No. It would be very easy to argue dota is a game of skill not of chance. Poker, legally, is classed as a game of chance, which is why there were legal issues.

[Paykoman]

G R E A T

[MDuh]

I do not like the sound of this..

Trading "points" or "coupons" for Real money/merchandise/Real-life prizes is what Valve hasn't done in any of its games..
you can get these coupons or points to trade with other players for virtual items (hats/keys/etc.) or by buying them directly to Mann Co. Store using $$$..

YOU can also get coupons/items/points by trading to other people using "REAL MONEY" BUT if you get scammed you're screwed
In my experience, VALVE rarely does anything if the trade happens "outside" the steam itself so I think this suggestion is too far-fetched to be implemented by valve

[Kroocsiogsi]

Playhem does turnkey player-organized buy-in tournaments (mostly Starcraft 2).

[iamcapo2]

I strongly support this or something like this.

[stoney]

most genius idea of all time

quick; valve, hire this man!

[d.phoenixxx]

I think this idea really has merit.

Definitions of gambling aside, I think we can all agree that playing a Dota match is not 'gambling'. So the only important factor is if any country has laws that consider such activities gambling.

Whether MTGO is popular or not has no bearing on its legality. If it is illegal in a particular country, it would not be able to operate, regardless if it had 1 million players or 1 thousand. Its not like MTGO runs off some obscure amateur website, it is a fully realized and commercialized game.

These laws aren't always concrete, but if the 'prize pool' of these tournaments does not have any actual transferable cash, I think it should be quite safe. What could be done is that you pay real cash for 'cash points', or whatever valve wants to call their in-game credit. You use this to buy a entry ticket into one these tournaments. If you win or place in a high ranking, you get more cash points, special cosmetic items, achievements, or whatever, but not real cash.

Even though you don't get 'real' money, I think a lot of people will go for this. The entry fee can be as low as a dollar or even 50 cents in cash points. If the top prize is even as low as something like $20 per player in cash points, I think it is an appealing return. Its also great for Valve as technically, they're taking in 100% cuts of the fees.

I don't think this should be just limited to five or so tournaments per week. If you have an automated system to support this, you can have hundreds of tournaments running everyday, for different skill brackets. Some extra logistics and support would need to be put in, but the return could be enormous, both for Valve and for players (as a gameplay feature, not profit)

Precisely, like MTGO, which has an automated queue system for tournament games.

Furthermore, prizes/payout for these tournaments can be more "cash points" or tickets that can be used to purchase cosmetics/better dedicated servers/join other tournaments.

While these "cash points" are bought using real cash, they can also be earned by playing. For example, 1 USD = 100 points, however, every game you complete online in matchmaking, 1 win = 15 points, 1 loss = 10 points, etc.
This would provide players who dont want to spend money a way to buy cosmetics, through playing more.
We can also allow trading these points for items, just like in TF2.

I do not like the sound of this..

Trading "points" or "coupons" for Real money/merchandise/Real-life prizes is what Valve hasn't done in any of its games..
you can get these coupons or points to trade with other players for virtual items (hats/keys/etc.) or by buying them directly to Mann Co. Store using $$$..

YOU can also get coupons/items/points by trading to other people using "REAL MONEY" BUT if you get scammed you're screwed
In my experience, VALVE rarely does anything if the trade happens "outside" the steam itself so I think this suggestion is too far-fetched to be implemented by valve

Trading online goods for money has been existent in every single game that have many players, it is impossible to stop it and naive to think that it can be stopped or curbed.
Just look at Diablo 3, Blizzard realised that instead of trying to discourage trading, why not just capitalise on it? Its a way for them to support their servers long term, furthermore, as well as letting players legitimize their transactions and feel safe.

[DLRevan]

But also profit.

But not for players. For us it would be 'fake' profit, since if we only get credit and not real cash, all we can do with it is apply for more tournaments or purchase micro-transaction goods. And I think thats just fine.

[Nemozini]

Dota match is not 'gambling'

I agree.

Furthermore, you have got the idea of "an event with an uncertain outcome" wrong.

But it is still not a game of utmost certainty. Can you fully predict the outcome of a battle at the time you pay your entrance fee? Maybe later during the battle? ...well it is too late you already paid.

It is simply like , if your probability of obtaining something is

• 0 - You are throwing your money.
• between 0 and 1 , you are gambling.
• 1 you are buying.

While these "cash points" are bought using real cash, they can also be earned by playing. For example, 1 USD = 100 points, however, every game you complete online in matchmaking, 1 win = 15 points, 1 loss = 10 points, etc.

IMO, if you use the cash points that your earned for free (vs real money) towards a tournment, I don't think it would be gambling. But if you buy them using 1$ to 100 points and then use them for the tournment it would be gambling.

All these paid "automatic" tournaments have no real value except the prize. You could always just play a normal Dota 2 battle for free, compete on the public ladder for rank for free or do your own tournament for free.

Please keep in mind , I personally don't like the idea but that doesn't matter. I just don't get why some think of it as not gambling in a casino sense. hiding facts behind "virtual points" doesn't change the fact. If I'm wrong , please criticize.

[d.phoenixxx]

I agree.



But it is still not a game of utmost certainty. Can you fully predict the outcome of a battle at the time you pay your entrance fee? Maybe later during the battle? ...well it is too late you already paid.

It is simply like , if your probability of obtaining something is

• 0 - You are throwing your money.
• between 0 and 1 , you are gambling.
• 1 you are buying.

IMO, if you use the cash points that your earned for free (vs real money) towards a tournment, I don't think it would be gambling. But if you buy them using 1$ to 100 points and then use them for the tournment it would be gambling.

All these paid "automatic" tournaments have no real value except the prize. You could always just play a normal Dota 2 battle for free, compete on the public ladder for rank for free or do your own tournament for free.

Please keep in mind , I personally don't like the idea but that doesn't matter. I just don't get why some think of it as not gambling in a casino sense. hiding facts behind "virtual points" doesn't change the fact. If I'm wrong , please criticize.

It isnt as simple as 0 and 1, you have that completely wrong in the first place.

Gambling involves luck and no influence from the players. This is a tournament, players influence the outcome, an easy way for a player to influence the outcome is to pick a hero and go AFK. Another way to influence it is to dominate the opposition.
Do you see the difference? It requires WORK and EFFORT on the player side. This is completely different from rolling a die or flipping a coin. There is an attempt to influence the outcome.
You are generalizing it into "Join a 2 team tournament, 50% chance to win." when it is not that at all.

As for the second part of your post, no, this isnt gambling. If it is, then TF2 trading items is gambling too, since money can be involved in the transactions.
Diablo 3 auction house can also be considered gambling. Riot Games' RP system can also be considered gambling. Mass Effect 3's cash for Vet/Spectre packs for multiplayer can also be considered gambling.
Why? All the aforementioned systems reward "points" for playing the game which can be used to buy ingame virtual goods, however, these "points" can also be bought using cash and/or traded between players.

[Nemozini]

Gambling involves luck and no influence from the players.

It just happens casino games are based themselves on luck (more specifically statistics to rip you off on average) , no influence , lots of lights , carpets and security. Doesn't mean if Dota 2 + OP suggestion missed any of these makes it not gambling. I clearly agreed that Dota 2 is NOT a game of chance. but the system encapsulating Dota 2 suggested by OP is a system of uncertainty. whether it is using Dota 2 or any other video game. OP system is based on spending real money for a chance to win something valued in real money where the outcome is uncertain to the players. If you are certain of the outcome of the Dota 2 "poker" tournament , maybe I need to add you to my friend list .

an easy way for a player to influence the outcome is to pick a hero and go AFK

goes with 0 - You are throwing your money.

It requires WORK and EFFORT on the player side

You can put all the work and effort you want in the match , but the outcome would be uncertain when you first paid your money. Only Chuck Norris can enter a tournament and be certain of the outcome.

As for the second part of your post, no, this isnt gambling. If it is, then TF2 trading items is gambling too, since money can be involved in the transactions.
Diablo 3 auction house can also be considered gambling. Riot Games' RP system can also be considered gambling. Mass Effect 3's cash for Vet/Spectre packs for multiplayer can also be considered gambling.
Why? All the aforementioned systems reward "points" for playing the game which can be used to buy ingame virtual goods, however, these "points" can also be bought using cash and/or traded between players.

Never said trading is gambling. Trading is 0 or 1. You either get something or get nothing in return and you should be certain of the trade outcome. unless of course you getting scammed for not using Steam Trade. In all your examples , both parties are certain of the end result.