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Official Matchmaking Feedback Thread

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  • Official Matchmaking Feedback Thread

    After some feedback from the devs, we are attempting to make feedback more useful for them. Please provide your feedback regarding matchmaking in this thread only. We only appreciate precise, objective, constructive, and to-the-point feedback. Simply saying, "I like/hate matchmaking" does not help the devs to improve it. When posting please post in the following format:

    LIKES

    - I like x aspect of matchmaking.
    <some comments if you have further suggestions to improve this aspect> (OPTIONAL)
    - I like y aspect of matchmaking.
    <some comments if you have further suggestions to improve this aspect> (OPTIONAL)
    - and so on

    DISLIKES

    - I dislike x aspect of matchmaking.
    Explain why you do not like it. Give examples (with matchID if possible).
    Finally, you must tell us what we can do to improve this aspect. (MANDATORY)
    - I dislike y aspect of matchmaking.
    Explain why you do not like it. Give examples (with matchID if possible).
    Finally, you must tell us what we can do to improve this aspect. (MANDATORY)
    - and so on

    If you do not follow the proper format in this thread (esp giving your reasons) or post off topic, your post(s) will be deleted. Do not reply to others posts in this thread. If you keep posting again without following the proper format, you may have your posting privileges revoked.


    EDIT: From April 11th: EricTams advised that changes have been made to the matchmaking algorithms to utilize the number of games played amongst other things. Please base your views on matchmaking after this point.


    General Information about Matchmaking (note that the quotes link to fruitful topics that you might want to read too)

    Vlog by Purge summarizing many aspects of the current matchmaking

    Originally posted by EricTams View Post
    As far as Matchmaking is concerned none of those buckets [low, medium, high] exist - We match on a continuous scale.
    Originally posted by EricTams View Post
    the easiest way to think about it is as a percentile rank so 100 levels.

    There is a maximum range that we match to that decreases based on your party size. This is why when you have a stack of 5 you end up taking longer to match since we can only match you to a few percent of the population.
    Originally posted by EricTams View Post
    Typically the trade off in matchmaking is wait time versus match quality. We could always try and slow down the match time in an attempt to provide higher accuracy matches but this will get better naturally as we add more players so I'd rather keep match times snappy.
    Originally posted by EricTams View Post
    - High skill games are definitely an area that will benefit as we get more players. It's also an area has had issues with match times in the past so I'm sensitive to how long this group needs to wait.

    - There can be no guarantee of how a game will play out even with perfect matchmaking. Hopefully someone can help me out with the details of that recent tourney where the winner of the winners bracket was in the finals and got destroyed in one game then destroyed the other team in the next. I think it's actually a good thing that the outcome of a match isn't set from the beginning but depends on the decisions that individuals are making during the course of play.

    - Building on the previous point, even with good matchmaking there are plenty of things that can go wrong:
    * Being conterpicked or having a bad team comp (overdependence on farm, no heroes that can stop a push, lack of DPS, bad teamfight, etc.)
    * Allowing teammates to lose a lane early
    * Luck
    * Natural variations in individual performance
    * People trying a new hero or strategy

    - We don't enforce a 50-50 win rate (Maybe we should?) instead we always try to make the best match possible. I'm always happy when I see someone with a win rate close to 50% though since it means that we haven't been skewing one way or the other in giving matches that were too hard or too easy. I totally agree with your desire to have fewer stomps though.

    - We don't try to match high skill players with low skill players instead we try to get 10 people that fit together the best. Parties can sometimes create a very big gap in skill on a team though and are generally the reason for anything that seems really wacky. Remember too that people people will always have good games and bad games so that person that seems terrible might just be having an off day instead.

    - The outcome of a games is determined more by the best person on a team rather than the worst player. My assumption was originally the same as yours but I had to change my mind once I saw the stats showing otherwise.
    Battle Points and Battle Level are not used in matchmaking.

    Performance Bars are not used in matchmaking.


    Q: What makes a "high quality" match?
    Originally posted by blash365 View Post
    a perfect match in a perfect world is where everybody has the same (correctly measured skill).
    a "high quality" match tries to get as close as possible to that result.

    Q: Do you add the percentile points for each team member and swap players untill both teams are even, or something more complex?
    Originally posted by EricTams
    We have two stages to create a game from Matchmaking

    1) Try to find 10 players that all match well to each other

    2) Try to split these 10 players into two groups of 5 that will create a balanced game

    Q: What about if someone who reported someone else, are they ever matched again?
    Q: Does matchmaking take players who only play one or two heroes into consideration?
    Originally posted by blash365 View Post
    No. At least not yet.
    Q: Does matchmaking take the type of hero a player likes to play (support, pusher, carry, random...) into consideration?
    Originally posted by blash365
    No. At least not yet. But there are threads about it: [Suggestion] Pick role before sign up for a game!
    Q. Does the commend/report system affect ones percentile?
    Originally posted by blash365 View Post
    No.
    General advice:
    Originally posted by blash365
    the longer you search for a match, the broader the search range gets. unbalanced matches might be results of a broad search range. either change to a better populated server (in case you are playing at odd hours) or simply reset the search to restart at a finer search range.
    Last edited by blash365; 09-26-2012, 06:53 AM. Reason: added more information about mm
    Please read Common Discussions, Common Suggestions, Common Technical Issues, Common Bugs, and do a website search prior to making any new thread.
    Use the report () button to report flaming, illegal discussions, offensive content, excessive spam, trolling, advertising, or duplicate threads

  • #2
    LIKES
    - I like that the majority of my games seem evenly matched. If there are bad players on my team, there are usually bad players on the opponents team as well.
    - I like the speed of the matchmaking system. I play on EU and it usually takes 2-3 minutes to find appropriate opponents.

    DISLIKES
    - I dislike playing against pre-made teams when it seems that my team is mostly (if not all) solo players. I don't mind if it's a pre-made from a lobby that don't play often together. It's the pre-mades that play together regularly that I feel should only be matched against similar pre-mades. If there was a way to track how often players play together and factor that into the equation I think that could help things.
    Please read Common Discussions, Common Suggestions, Common Technical Issues, Common Bugs, and do a website search prior to making any new thread.
    Use the report () button to report flaming, illegal discussions, offensive content, excessive spam, trolling, advertising, or duplicate threads

    Comment


    • #3
      Likes
      I like that when I use matchmaking in my area (Europe) the game doesn't take more than 2 minutes to be found.
      I like that I can go on multiple locations such as US east, Europe to shorten the waiting times.
      Also I like the games I get matchmade overall. They are even, When I have lower skilled players in my team often the case is on the enemy team.

      Dislike
      I dislike matchmaking against premade teams. Often the case is all stacked enemies are lan, and have better coordination and of course better oversight. While I go solo matchmaking I would want to play against other people that also soloed matchmaking.
      As an improvement to this I want a separate matchmaking, one for premades andone for solo.
      Last edited by slowreflex; 04-09-2012, 02:56 AM.
      Before posting a bug read the Bug posting guidelines first and check the Known Bugs list For existing bugs.


      Use the report () button when you need help from a Moderator.




      Comment


      • #4
        Likes:
        -Short queue times for -ap games.

        Dislikes:
        -Long queue times for SD and especially CM.
        Possible Solution: Increase search range for SD and CM games or adjust search range depending on number of players searching for the gamemode in the region you are queuing for. Will result in less balanced games, but I think it shouldn't be a problem for CM, as people queuing for it are usually better and more competitive.

        Comment


        • #5
          LIKES
          - Acceptable queue times in my region (SEA), around 5 minutes max during peak times.
          - High priority matchmaking (when someone declines) does appear to work; even if more than one person did not accept a match is usually found again almost immediately after.

          DISLIKES
          - The system matches people with few games played (eg, less than 10 or 20) with and against people with dozens of games played. This often causes problems even among newer players who selected the 'high skill' option upon first login, as they are unfamiliar with the differences between Dota 2 and other ARTS games.

          Some possible solutions may be to rank new players temporarily lower despite their selected skill bracket until their performance can be assessed, limit the number of new players that can be assigned to any one team and/or match the number of new players between the two teams. This will help new players learn the game without too much pressure, or make it easier for experienced teammates to guide them.
          Last edited by DLRevan; 04-09-2012, 04:09 AM.
          Always read and follow the forum rules. If you need help from a moderator, use the report button ()
          Before posting new bugs:
          -Check the Known Bugs List and search the forum for an existing report.
          -Make sure its a bug (test in WC3 Dota, visit playdota guides and adv. mech, etc). If you're still not sure, post in Mechanics and Gameplay Bug Brainstorming instead.
          -Read the Bug Posting Guidelines on how to report a bug properly.

          Comment


          • #6
            LIKES
            -Short queue time solo and even with party
            -Most of the time it is good in balancing the teams
            (because if a player has 1/1 win loss ratio [most players do]the system did a good job)
            [suggestion: if you could implement a setting to add into account the way a user plays the game because players are not jacks of all trades so some1 might be good at support but suck at carry , so if you match players that always go support with those that always go carry the team might have a better score then a team made out of carry players]

            DISLIKES
            -The fact that teams with 3k+ games combined can be put up against teams with under 1 k games combined
            (most of the time the first team just massacres)
            -The long queue times for SD,CM

            Comment


            • #7
              LIKES
              - Short queue times for AP mode at non-peak and peak hours, 5 minutes on average for non peak and 30 seconds on average for peak. (Findings are from 31st March 2012 to 9th April 2012, after the Syllabear patch. Only for SEA servers.)
              - Efficient Matchmaking that often pairs me with and against high-skilled opponents and allies who contribute to playing a serious competitive game.
              - When I am in a team of 5 friends going into matchmaking, my team tends to get matched against other team of 5 friends, ensuring a great intense match, and not a pubstomp.

              DISLIKES
              - Matchmaking for Captain's Mode (CM) can be improved. There are too little teams playing CM mode and some incentive or in-game reward should be given for teams of 5 to actively try out Captain's Mode. Currently, Captain's Mode is very deserted and takes 10-15 minutes to find a single game during peak hours, and no game can be found during non peak hours. (Findings are from 31st March 2012 to 9th April 2012, after the Syllabear patch. Only for SEA servers.)
              - Every time a new patch is applied, Southeast Asia servers have a chance of failing and results in people being unable to play due to Matchmake malfunction.

              Suggestion to reduce the number of people complaining about unfair matchmaking:
              Introduce a system similar to a Starcraft 2 Season league, let players know how they are being paired up with. A lot of people are now complaining that they have X hundreds amount of wins but are being paired with or against people with X tens amount of wins.
              If they are able to see the system, such as whether a certain player is in Bronze, Silver, Gold, etc, they can gauge their own skill level and report feedback better.


              Current feedback is flawed and biased because most people do not know their own skill level, think they are too low or too high, and give skewed reports according to what they perceive.

              Suggestions are in RED.
              Last edited by d.phoenixxx; 04-09-2012, 03:33 AM.
              He's the hero this community deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt his identity, because he can take it, because he's not our hero. He's a silent buffer, a watchful nerfer. An IceFrog.

              My Speedtest Result

              Comment


              • #8
                Likes
                I like how fast I can find a game
                I like how fast it finds another player in case one declines/disconnects during loading

                Dislikes
                I dislike premade teams against random pub players (Suggestion: Make matchmaking only for Premades)

                I dislike how teams are often unbalanced, I do not understand how can someone like me get teamed with a guy that has no idea what he is doing and has 20 wins (I have around 280 games, 144 won) (Suggestion: Well I guess that this will fix itself with more players, also I wouldn't balance the teams like "Put two good players here, give them some noobs, lets put 3 medium players there team and give them 2 begginers" which is IMO happening ATM and it sucks, when I get into higher tier games, I want to play with higher tier players only)

                I dislike that there is so far no punishment for canceling a game/leaving during loading. So if I get unlucky, I have to wait 4 times more, because people keep doing this. (Suggestion: Add some kind of punishment, like 5 minutes without being able to join matchmaking)
                Originally posted by vladhood
                boy im glad all these qualified and educated game designers have come to the forums to help dota 2 grow

                Comment


                • #9
                  Likes
                  -Most of my solo games have been quite evenly matched
                  -Returning to MM with high priority usually finds another game really fast

                  Dislikes
                  -Grouping up with friends who are below my rating is an absolute crapshoot, the matchmaker seems incapable of consistently matching up even teams if there is a skill gap between party members.
                  -Playing solo and being put on a team with a stack of four. This is never fun, either I feel completely uninvolved because the others four are on vent/skype doing their own thing or they blame me for the loss regardless of what's happening in the game.

                  Possible solutions:

                  -I think you should disable being able to queue as four, either drop one or find another for a full team.
                  -As far as making mm better for parties it's tough to even say whats wrong since mmr isn't made public we can't have a look and see if mm obviously screwed up the weighting.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    LIKES
                    - Decent time to find a match around 2.5mins
                    - It's good you can play on others servers too, for example choosing US East too or Asia etc.
                    - Decent pings on other servers, but it could be better.
                    - I honestly like when I'm matched against a premade team but this should happen only when in my team all players have a decent amount of wins over the premade team. Example premade team total wins 300, pub team total wins 600. This way the premade team has a challenge to improve itself and in the same time a disavantage cause it's playing against some sort of high skilled players even though they aren't a premade team.
                    - I like that we can choose, ap, sd or cm but also I strongly suggest you should implement AR (all random). It's good in matches against a premade team, it's harder for them to coordinate since they have random heroes, sometimes it may be an advantage or not.

                    DISLIKES
                    - Even if we are MM with a team mate that has 200wins, it doesn't mean he knows to play. This can be improved by implementing ranking rules like if the user had played before with support heroes in the past games and bought wards or courier he/she should have a higher rating in comparison with a user that played support without wards. This is vital to a game.
                    - I don't have nothing against playing with new players that have a small number of wins but if so please introduce a warning for them when matchmaking into a game that has players with wins over 100. The warning can be "You are matchmaked into a game with players that played a lot more matches than you, please listen their coordination, if so they will "recommend" you at the end of the game; Here a recommend button should be available for the newbie players, it they play good and listen to others we can hit recommend button smth like "apprentice" and boost their ranking.
                    - The amount of russian players that are rude, don't speak in english and in most of the 70% of the matches they ruin the game, here I don't have a suggestion besides a special server for them.

                    The above suggestions are part made only if the players can see their levels of skill (transparency between users).
                    Last edited by Florin; 04-09-2012, 04:21 AM.
                    "Failure will never overtake me if my determination to succeed is strong enough."
                    "I don't play the odds, I play the man."
                    "Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men, just want to watch the world burn."
                    "Luck is the last dying wish of those who wanna believe that winning can happen by accident."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      LIKES
                      -Almost all, good job Valve.
                      DISLIKES
                      -Premades breaks the system, they give fake % wins to people that suck after leaving team. Perhaps raising premades level when trying to find a balanced game?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        LIKES
                        - short q time
                        - wide selection of server

                        DISLIKES
                        - no penalty or sort for people who kept declining the match. a certain amount of times like 2/3min ban from queuing would be good enough for those who declined 3 times in a row
                        - i really needs to know on what ground people are currently being match up with. to be clear, i want to see some sort of stats or like sc2 system
                        - sometimes im being match up with people who played 0 match despite me myself have had 600++ matches played. so basically we're back to point number 2
                        - im regularly q in SEA server which is well known for getting down every single times new patch comes out. so, hope valve can have a look towards this
                        "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          LIKES
                          - playing vs known pro-players.
                          - playing with solos vs stacks (many criticize it, but I love it every single time!)
                          (tbh I think I enjoy both those types of games because I tend to get people with skill in my team this way. And that's all that matters to me. Skilled teammates. Idc how good my opponent is.)
                          - playing with many viewers (fun)
                          - for the most part, it works
                          - no public stats (kdr, etc). Amount of wins should be removed though.

                          DISLIKES
                          - I'd like to be able to get rid of any of following behaviours in my high level games:
                          -- picking a jungler and deciding to jungle for the next 15 minutes before picks are even made.
                          -- not reacting to my mass pings (impossible to not hear them) in less than, let's say, 5 seconds (I play mostly furion).
                          -- similar to the previous complain: continueing to creep despite having a teamclash literally 2 inches in front of them. this behaviour can be seen way to often.
                          -- going on a unusual lane for the hero without communicating the "why"s with the team, despite being asked to change, potentially forcing another lane to be unnecessarily hard. e.g. windrunner going short lane, forcing slardar/es long lane.
                          -- going on a lane which was called by someone else before (It should be made clear in the tutorial that calling the lane has always higher priority than what hero is already standing on the lane. This is an absolute must.)
                          Solution: Add report option "gameruin" and implement a fourth skill tier.

                          - the range of skill in those "high" level games is too wide
                          - It feels like there are streaks of games where you get the most ridiculous people. Those are not the guys that simply do many mistakes or are bad, but seem to effectively want to ruin the game. I've yet to see one of them being banned.
                          Last edited by mr.ioes; 04-09-2012, 05:32 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            LIKES
                            - short queue time
                            - wide selection of stable servers (so far I had problem with dc during only one game from 130+ games played)

                            DISLIKES
                            1. Premade groups in solo queue
                            / Group of players which often play together will have huge advantage over few random players who never meet before. I feel that such advantage often lead to unbalanced games due to difference in cooperation.
                            > Possible solution < Once Beta is over and you'll have more players make 3 different queues such as:
                            - True solo queue (you can sign only alone)
                            - "MIX queue" for premade groups and solo players 1-2-3-4 (This queue will allow premades to get matched with and against other premades. Solo slot maybe useful for players who like to get matched with / and against premades. This may help them find new team to play with and decrease queue time for premades.
                            - Full premade queue (only premade of 5 players are allowed to join)

                            2. Players with low wins count / amount of games played getting matched with players who have lot's of games played
                            / I realize that amount of games played doesn't make you pro by default but it gives you some experience which may give advantage in certain situations. I know there are players who played lot's of games in Dota 1 and other ARTS / mobas but everyone whos starting with clean record should be put in some test games against bots before matchmaking will find him a game.
                            > Possible solution < During these bots games you can force player to play certain heroes / roles and check how well he can last hit / deny, how often he buy wards / die / kill or get assists during let say first 20-25mins. After 10 or so test games you can use this data to match him with other players who have similar results. This will decrease problem of very bad players getting matched with decent players only because they selected "highest skill possible upon first login in to Dota 2".

                            3. Lack of useful options in current Matchmaking.
                            / There's lot's of option which can improve players experience such as:
                            - Black List: This is very important when you meet someone who ruin game on purpose and you don't want to wait until he get banned nor risk that you'll get matched with him again during next game.
                            > Possible solution < Option to prevent with being match with certain player in future games. Set limit of Black listed players to ~5 and inform player that Black Listing players may increase his queue time.

                            - Leavers:

                            There should be an option which allow players to avoid getting matched with players who have "X" % of games left. It's really annoying when you get leavers few games in a row while you havent left single game or your % of games left is very low. (add msg which inform player that using this option may increase his queue time)

                            - Range of skill used in matchmaking and waiting time:

                            There are players who are willing to sacrifice more time than others until they get balanced game. Allow players to decide how close games they want and inform that using this option may increase queue time.

                            for example:

                            option 1: "I want to get matched only with players who have similar skill and im willing to sacrifice more time"
                            option 2: "I want to get fast game and im willing to play with players who are as good as me, better and worse than me".
                            Last edited by IWantToHelpAsMuchAsIcan; 04-09-2012, 05:33 AM.
                            Read this if you want to know why so many games is very one sided: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post436467

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Likes
                              - I like party system of matchmaking.
                              I think being able to form instant party at the end of a game (with people who are not in my friend list) would improve this system even more
                              - I like that MMR is kept hidden.
                              I think this should be kept hidden forever. It reduces elitism.

                              Dislikes
                              - I dislike getting matched with 5 man party when 5 solo queuers in my team.
                              The reason is simple. The game usually becomes too one sided. Either the 5 man party is too strong or they are too weak. When solo queuing, I don't think I ever had a balanced game against 5 man party. It was always a stomp from this side or that (mostly them). So the criteria to match make needs more fine tuning.

                              Comment

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