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Teamplay Impetus

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  • Teamplay Impetus

    It has always been a problem in DoTA to get public gamers to operate as an organized team in random games. Alongside that problem comes an issue with the learning curve in DoTA, and a problem with skilled players progressing through the lower ranks. I want to elaborate a touch on each of these issues to clarify before I propose a single solution that may give considerable ground in solving all three issues.

    To begin with it is fairly well known that public gamers especially new ones but in many cases even older ones are obsessed with K/D/A. It's not hard to see why. K/D/A is to date the only realistic means of judging their individual skill, and their only means of showing off their individual skill. This obviously causes a huge void of teamplay in public games. Games begin and 2-3 players rush to grab carries that will make them look good if they win while 2-3 players wait to pick hoping to counterpick. The first 2-3 then insist that the later 2-3 play support/tanks since they already have carries. This in turn burns the players willing to wait to pick and eventually many of them resort to the same quickdraw methods hoping to avoid being stuck with support every single game. Already before the game has even begun there is an anti-teamwork problem manifesting. Once the game has actually begun we see support heroes refusing to puchase wards etc because the loss of income threatens their personal success. We see tank/support/gankers etc Kill stealing from carries reflecting their personal desire for success again. We see competant players sitting in the fountain when a game goes south instead of trying to turn the game around because they don't want to feed a snowballing team and look bad. All of this is counterproductive and yet it is being encouraged in new players through the K/D/A grading system.

    With all of this emphasis on K/D/A pushed on new players it is no shock that so many players find DoTA to have a difficult learning curve. The truth is DoTA does NOT have a hard learning curve. The truth is we are encouraging them to learn the wrong style of gameplay in effect stinting their growth.

    On the matter of skilled player progression. Yes a skilled player can hook up with some buddies and steamroll pubs all day long if he can find halfway competent buddies to roll with. However this is usual done through methods of hero choice and gimmeks not actual teamwork. Although the inherent extra teamwork is helpful it is only one factor in their success. I've talked to alot of players both skilled and unskilled and found a very subtle problem boiling under DoTA public games. Solo players (not involved in a guild etc) are forced to play lower tier public games if they want to build a rep. Obviously the intent is for higher skilled players to move on to higher tiers of play, however this does not always happen. On the other side of the sword we often find lower skilled player sin higher tiers. The reason is simple. Not all higher skilled players are willing to sit and play bounty hunter 24 hours a day for a week. It really is that simple. There are heroes (bounty hunter, Ursa, Lich, and etc) that can be effortlessly used to game break the majority of public matches. (it is easy to build up a decent K/D/A and win ratio with them.) Meanwhile many lower skilled players have no qualms whatsoever about abusing these heroes in lower tier public matches. They in turn move up in tiers without earning it. Additionally higher skilled players often have a tendacy to choose higher skilled heroes which even with a higher skill base is not beneficial to their rep. In a lower tier public game you do not want to be the only player from either team investing in wards etc. At the end of the day all it earns you is an underfed hero. Alot of the time the people you are playing with do not even have the sense to utilize the wards you placed. What I am getting at if it isnt clear yet is, Skill itself can be a players worst enemy in public games. It can in effect block a skilled player from ever progressing.

    I know that these problems are dynamic and not everyone would even agree they are problems. (especially the skilled/un-skilled players who didnt mind playing ursa till they got tiered up.) But unless the Dev's address these problems DoTA 2 will suffer fromt he same stat guided nonsense that DoTa suffered from. Players choosing techies getting 5 early kills then sitting at the fountain for the rest of the game building up their total K/D/A.

    One proposed solution for this (and I'm sure I am not the first) which would help with all three problems is to make the performance meters more intuitive. This one act will encourage new players to learn actual gameplay, to focus less on K/D/A, and to be less selective about their heroes. (encouraging their growth of knowledge.) It will also if used as a basis for leveling give a much more fair method of progression for skilled players, and un-skilled players alike. Most importantly though we will see a huge increase in teamwork in public games if the gamers feel their personal success is tied to their success as a teamplayer. Performance meters judging how much time players spent near each other or wards dropped etc are examples that I gave in a previous post. Not judging K/D/A during times of snowballing was another. (one team has earned double the gold or kills etc.)

    Obviously these problems would still exist to some degree but it would certainly lighten the load alot.

    I do apologize for this being posted twice but after I considered the facts I realized that my argument had no case without the reasons or problems being discussed.

    Disclaimer: I make no assumptions or claims on my own personal skill levels. Theorycraft is not the same as craft.

    For the trolls: We know you're awesome and u can get high kills on a crappy team while buying wards and playing dazzle in a losing game.. Thanks for the info.

    MODS: This post itself might have gotten double posted. That was accidental. Plz don't delete them both I only needed one.

    PS: Ward is dropped. Gamecheck is ward outside base area, did player already drop wards 1 minute ago. etc. )it doesn't have to be done so players can use it to pad stats._)
    Last edited by kenshiiro28; 04-20-2012, 09:17 AM.

  • #2
    tl;dr

    just sayin' (mby add a tl;dr version?)


    Right, just read it, could still use a tl;dr version, but i see why you haven't and really cant ^^'

    But i really dont think that valve hasnt thought of this in one way or another.

    You're talking about the performance meters and levels, but dont forget that they'll implement tutorials, achievements, and i could imagine multiple ingame additions that could help in hero picks aswell, theres alot of things they can add into the game, its still only a beta

    But as you said, i don't feel this is really a big problem and all i can say is that i have faith in valve when it comes to this
    Last edited by lamepeis; 04-20-2012, 10:31 AM.

    Comment


    • #3

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lamepeis View Post
        tl;dr

        just sayin' (mby add a tl;dr version?)
        Are you kidding me? It's one page.


        Nice read, OP. I hope an actual dev reads it too.

        Comment


        • #5
          TL;DR

          Not familiar with the term. I'm not a forum junkie persay u'll have to excuse me. Please elaborate.

          Comment


          • #6
            TL;DR means "Too Long; Didn't Read" but in most cases, I find "Too Lazy; Didn't Read" to be more fitting.
            To keep these forums clean and friendly, please read and follow the forum rules.
            Before making a new thread, be sure to have used search, as well as checking the stickies of the appropriate section.



            Lore moderator.

            Comment


            • #7
              gotcha heh There was no easy way to post this. no attention grabbing means either I tried that already. Without the argument for the problem existing it's just nonsense and nobody will really get the need for the change.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think you might some valid points there, although i have to disagree on one of them.

                I am no good player. I have medium lasthit-skills, I dont check the minimap too often and sometimes I just lose the teamfight for our team or dont stun the right person. Still I have some very good knowledge of the game (itembuilts, counters, synergies, mechanics, tricks i cant use due to my inability ...). I dont like to play carries either, because as a failing/feeding carry you are blamed even more than a failing support ("i died to safe your life!!"). Thus I play support pretty much all the time. In dota1 I played on many platforms, in the end on dotalicious, where I switched between skill-level 0 and 1 all the time (meaning i was at about 40% wins), now I have 51%. In my opinion dota2 is an easier game than dota1, still I believe the matchmaking helped me to reach this standard, where i enjoy to support rather than get blamed every single game.

                What I want to say is there is a way up the ranks for people who play support and no pubstomping lame-gankers namely bh, bs, riki, ns.. I barely get a positive k:d in any of my games, still I win games even against better enemy teams.

                In my opinion the most important aspect valve needs to continue to fight is the hatred-culture of our community. If all carries would thank supports for wards and everyone would give reasonable feedback at each other, more people would enjoy playing other roles than carries, since you could get a "good" feeling from the match without going 20:0.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kenshiiro28 View Post
                  It has always been a problem in DoTA to get public gamers to operate as an organized team in random games. Alongside that problem comes an issue with the learning curve in DoTA, and a problem with skilled players progressing through the lower ranks. I want to elaborate a touch on each of these issues to clarify before I propose a single solution that may give considerable ground in solving all three issues.

                  To begin with it is fairly well known that public gamers especially new ones but in many cases even older ones are obsessed with K/D/A. It's not hard to see why. K/D/A is to date the only realistic means of judging their individual skill, and their only means of showing off their individual skill. This obviously causes a huge void of teamplay in public games. Games begin and 2-3 players rush to grab carries that will make them look good if they win while 2-3 players wait to pick hoping to counterpick. The first 2-3 then insist that the later 2-3 play support/tanks since they already have carries. This in turn burns the players willing to wait to pick and eventually many of them resort to the same quickdraw methods hoping to avoid being stuck with support every single game. Already before the game has even begun there is an anti-teamwork problem manifesting. Once the game has actually begun we see support heroes refusing to puchase wards etc because the loss of income threatens their personal success. We see tank/support/gankers etc Kill stealing from carries reflecting their personal desire for success again. We see competant players sitting in the fountain when a game goes south instead of trying to turn the game around because they don't want to feed a snowballing team and look bad. All of this is counterproductive and yet it is being encouraged in new players through the K/D/A grading system.

                  With all of this emphasis on K/D/A pushed on new players it is no shock that so many players find DoTA to have a difficult learning curve. The truth is DoTA does NOT have a hard learning curve. The truth is we are encouraging them to learn the wrong style of gameplay in effect stinting their growth.

                  On the matter of skilled player progression. Yes a skilled player can hook up with some buddies and steamroll pubs all day long if he can find halfway competent buddies to roll with. However this is usual done through methods of hero choice and gimmeks not actual teamwork. Although the inherent extra teamwork is helpful it is only one factor in their success. I've talked to alot of players both skilled and unskilled and found a very subtle problem boiling under DoTA public games. Solo players (not involved in a guild etc) are forced to play lower tier public games if they want to build a rep. Obviously the intent is for higher skilled players to move on to higher tiers of play, however this does not always happen. On the other side of the sword we often find lower skilled player sin higher tiers. The reason is simple. Not all higher skilled players are willing to sit and play bounty hunter 24 hours a day for a week. It really is that simple. There are heroes (bounty hunter, Ursa, Lich, and etc) that can be effortlessly used to game break the majority of public matches. (it is easy to build up a decent K/D/A and win ratio with them.) Meanwhile many lower skilled players have no qualms whatsoever about abusing these heroes in lower tier public matches. They in turn move up in tiers without earning it. Additionally higher skilled players often have a tendacy to choose higher skilled heroes which even with a higher skill base is not beneficial to their rep. In a lower tier public game you do not want to be the only player from either team investing in wards etc. At the end of the day all it earns you is an underfed hero. Alot of the time the people you are playing with do not even have the sense to utilize the wards you placed. What I am getting at if it isnt clear yet is, Skill itself can be a players worst enemy in public games. It can in effect block a skilled player from ever progressing.

                  I know that these problems are dynamic and not everyone would even agree they are problems. (especially the skilled/un-skilled players who didnt mind playing ursa till they got tiered up.) But unless the Dev's address these problems DoTA 2 will suffer fromt he same stat guided nonsense that DoTa suffered from. Players choosing techies getting 5 early kills then sitting at the fountain for the rest of the game building up their total K/D/A.

                  One proposed solution for this (and I'm sure I am not the first) which would help with all three problems is to make the performance meters more intuitive. This one act will encourage new players to learn actual gameplay, to focus less on K/D/A, and to be less selective about their heroes. (encouraging their growth of knowledge.) It will also if used as a basis for leveling give a much more fair method of progression for skilled players, and un-skilled players alike. Most importantly though we will see a huge increase in teamwork in public games if the gamers feel their personal success is tied to their success as a teamplayer. Performance meters judging how much time players spent near each other or wards dropped etc are examples that I gave in a previous post. Not judging K/D/A during times of snowballing was another. (one team has earned double the gold or kills etc.)

                  Obviously these problems would still exist to some degree but it would certainly lighten the load alot.

                  I do apologize for this being posted twice but after I considered the facts I realized that my argument had no case without the reasons or problems being discussed.

                  Disclaimer: I make no assumptions or claims on my own personal skill levels. Theorycraft is not the same as craft.

                  For the trolls: We know you're awesome and u can get high kills on a crappy team while buying wards and playing dazzle in a losing game.. Thanks for the info.

                  MODS: This post itself might have gotten double posted. That was accidental. Plz don't delete them both I only needed one.

                  PS: Ward is dropped. Gamecheck is ward outside base area, did player already drop wards 1 minute ago. etc. )it doesn't have to be done so players can use it to pad stats._)

                  Well said.

                  I think you've just put the the people who circle-jerk about KDR in their place. Yeah, you have a 3.0 KDR, but you play heroes like Lycan, Phoenix, Tuskarr (when he first came out), Zeus (when AGH had a chain-lightning effect glitch), and Ember Spirit.

                  I find myself in that "random pubs pick carries; demand that you pick support" situation in EVERY GAME I play where I don't have friends as teammates. Furthermore, even playing with FOUR teammates, you can see how "bad pub" practices take place within your hand-built team! There's no excuse for a party of 4-5 to not have runes warded. None. But it happens.

                  Well done. Would read again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the worst is when you have several people instantly lock in a carry. When are you ever going to need more than 2 at any given point? Yet despite this, I've ended up on teams with 4 carries before. I think players should be encouraged to pick what the team needs to succeed, not a hero that will boost their arbitrary kdr.

                    Even worse is when you're playing a relatively difficult hero, die to a guy playing an easy pubstomper then they have the gall to talk trash, but that's another story entirely. No one is impressed by your ability to stay invisible and get kills riki and gondar.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your wall of text is beautifully posed and not what I was expecting on a game forum.

                      *cheers* I am actually [I hope] not a bad player. I tend to play bad in games where there is no team synergy. I tend to rape in games where the team is owning (in-so-far as I am involved in a lot of the kills). If it is not obvious, I play support a lot (that or I am actually just bad) - this is directly related to the exact experience that you described (albeit in HoN): I was new (coming from 3v3 LAN EM - which is retarded). I was new, I played support - I stepped aside and let other people carry the game.

                      Here is the irony: I actually play pretty well with carries [at least I think I do]; I actually play quite well with initiators [factual]. I still let other people take the helm. NOTHING in HoN helped me with this: it was basically playing with friends and them letting me learn. Even when I am carrying [and owning] I will play the long game; I won't be a dick and fountain rape them: I ensure the victory (push towers etc.). Experience with carries does not necessarily lend itself to good games; you need to be intimately aware of each class and actually be able to play them.

                      So here is the contradiction: most carry players (I have seen) will fountain rape; if you actually want to win you will push towers if the opposing team is suppressed enough. This has resulted in the odd loss. Even letting the newbies play the carries may not work.

                      Not-with-standing the contradiction here is my suggestion. From the PlayDota guides we can deduce synergies and arch enemies. When your team/enemy team picks heroes update the hero list with a glowing border indicating which picks might work: basically:
                      • Red: Arch enemy on enemy team
                      • Amber: Both red and green cases
                      • Green: Synergetic hero on your team


                      This would clearly be an additional MM/queuing option ("Show synergies") because it could be seen as an unfair advantage.

                      Thank you for your post.
                      Rules to be a good beta tester:
                      1. Don't bring WC3 limitations to DOTA 2.
                      2. Be an example. You are not here to play ALL games for fun. You are here to test so we can have a better game.
                      3. Don't say that something is working as intended, unless it makes complete sense, not just because it was like DOTA 1.
                      4. Being a better player than someone doesn't mean his argument is null-and-void.
                      5. Use the search.
                      Language Issues | Matchmaking Issues | Report/Commend Issues

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lamepeis View Post
                        tl;dr

                        just sayin' (mby add a tl;dr version?)


                        Right, just read it, could still use a tl;dr version, but i see why you haven't and really cant ^^'

                        But i really dont think that valve hasnt thought of this in one way or another.

                        You're talking about the performance meters and levels, but dont forget that they'll implement tutorials, achievements, and i could imagine multiple ingame additions that could help in hero picks aswell, theres alot of things they can add into the game, its still only a beta

                        But as you said, i don't feel this is really a big problem and all i can say is that i have faith in valve when it comes to this
                        I am sure they probably will and I appreciate that they will. Unfortunately at the end of the day when LIVE DoTA 2 drops onto the shelves nearly every player will ultimately play with two things in mind. Their personal statistics, and their personal progression. Those two factors will decide how the majority of players play. Those two factors MUSt reflect good teamwork and playstyle if we desire to see good teamwork and playstyle. IMHO.

                        Thanks for coming back and taking the time to read through it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I 100% agree these issues should be looked into. Thank you we have faith in you Valve don't let us down!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This kind of thing has been talked about for years, and I don't think a solid solution has been or will be found (not easily, at least).

                            I'm not sure performance bars/ratings are the way to focus - I've seen many systems and they are always abusable in one way or another, no matter how you stack it. The way to get better teamwork is through education: picks, roles, early/mid/late/overall game plan, combos, ward positioning, matching skill builds, item builds, counters, initiating, plan Bs, plan Zs, etc, which comes mainly from experience - realising what does and doesn't work (in picks, roles, combos, etc. mentioned before) rather than just reading it or being told it. That comes with experience and careful tutorage over time.

                            So, I absolutely disagree with your assertion that Dota does not have a hard learning curve, it has an insane learning curve. Although guidance helps, there is no shortcut to Dota improvement and no substitute for experience.

                            F2P will bring in floods of newbies, I just hope that the MM system works properly so that the cream can rise to the top without being dragged down by the crap.

                            Finally, hero balance at or around 50% win rate would go a very long way to solving this issue. Unfortunately, that's a very hard thing to do, though it would help if clearly OP heroes were nerfed properly and quickly, and clearly UP heroes were buffed properly and quickly. Which isn't really Iceforgs approach (more 'buff to the top, nerf to the bottom - gives each hero their time in the sun for a while' approach).
                            Last edited by findus; 04-27-2012, 06:53 AM.

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