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[SUGGESTION] Team Balance / Team Builder

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  • #16
    I like the graph idea! However, IMO the graph should be visible to teammates only.. So let us / enemy guess each opponent's team composition, main strength..

    also it would take a little bit of time to collect the ratio of each role for every hero, and also from multiple professional references for the data to be accurate.

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    • #17
      The concept of counters is entirely dependent on the metagame and how you lane, which changes over time and should not be reinforced by any automated system. Even roles are highly fluid, depending on your play style and the prevalent strategy. Just picking a "carry" hero doesn't automatically make you a carry, you have to play that role yourself.

      They will be adding a recommended heroes system, but it will be driven by your teammates' recommendations which I think is the right way to go.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by andzero View Post
        I like the graph idea! However, IMO the graph should be visible to teammates only.. So let us / enemy guess each opponent's team composition, main strength..

        also it would take a little bit of time to collect the ratio of each role for every hero, and also from multiple professional references for the data to be accurate.
        Agree with the part that it should only be visible to team mates only.

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        • #19
          I've been playing DOTA for some time, so as a seasoned player who often watches pro replays and studies various strategies and hero line ups, this sort of tool would not be useful to me; BUT i would love it if this was added to the game. I cannot tell you how many games I've had to endure where the entire team picks carries (and frequently the wrong ones, such as a clinkz and a riki against a bounty hunter) and they end up failing because no one gets to farm properly. This feature would really benefit newer and less serious DOTA players, and help to lessen the amount of "OMFG NOOBS SOMEONE BUY KFC IM CARRY" that we all have to endure in chat.

          Just one downside: Making a game too noob friendly tends to cause problems... just saying.
          "Better to run, than curse the road." - Clinkz, The Bone Fletcher.

          sigpic

          Does anyone else think that Icefrog didn't make this update?

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          • #20
            Seeing enemy team score could make more players choose required roles. If opponents have good composed team it would encourage player to chose wisely and if opponents already messed up it could leave some space for freedom. At least that's what i thought, what would be downside of seeing enemies rating? Its aimed at people that cant guess enemies strength and weaknesses so that's out.

            As for the counters, you do chose specific role with your play but all of them have counters, and you would be given all possibilities. Teammates suggestion are fine in mid and high levels but low level players that this is aim for are in no way qualified to make those suggestions.
            Work in progress, feedback appreciated

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            • #21
              IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

              -1

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              • #22
                What if these graphs automatically show up for the hero you're selected on ONLY if you've played fewer than 5 games with that hero? That way newer players will have the suggestions that can help them understand the game better, but experienced players won't be able to bitch about the score decreasing because they won't actually see it.

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                • #23
                  PLUS ONE!

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                  • #24
                    This is a very good idea. I'm a knowledgeable played and I often solo queue. When I solo queue and try to explain team dynamics and counters to pubs, they just don't even get it. With an objective tool like this, they might be like: well, herpity derp, who knew silencer countered ES? and then get a clue.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
                      IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

                      -1
                      What kind of argument is that? This would visually show pubs they're doing it wrong. The roles are also generalized so the best players would ignore their team rating and pick the perfect heroes for the situation. This won't make pubs somehow pro but only make a game have a single carry and multiple supports: aka fun and balanced.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
                        IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

                        -1
                        So you think this tool will merge beginners mediocre and elite? You are right about hero selection being important and that's true, but new players need to learn this before making decisions for themselves. I completely forgot to compare this to suggested builds. Does those merge noobs with pros since items build are important part of the dota. Do they make games automatic? Should we remove them as well?

                        As for team score, team score could work like this. When you select hero you will get +x.x. or -x.x indicator and overall score would be shown when all heroes are picked so you cant blame someone because you don't know how they influenced the game in small degrees. Picking a carry in 3 carry team will lead to flaming regardless.

                        As for enemy team score not showing up i still think its better to be there so when they see a good or bad score they will try to find reasons about it by linking it with their team synergy and counters.
                        Work in progress, feedback appreciated

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
                          IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

                          -1
                          I agree, I also think it would limit the number of hero combinations in games to just a hand full, making the game seem more repetitive. Also, I think it will give your team-mates a reason to flame you more for not picking the suggested heroes instead of the heroes you're proficient with. Who says I can't pick sand king if we already have two gankers? Maybe we need an initiator, maybe I think my ultimate in combination with warlock's pain link will win us the game.
                          Comprehension of how the game works, bold and confident picks, team play as well as outstanding individual skill win the game. You can't make that automatic.
                          One world is much like another

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by simplysh View Post
                            I agree, I also think it would limit the number of hero combinations in games to just a hand full, making the game seem more repetitive. Also, I think it will give your team-mates a reason to flame you more for not picking the suggested heroes instead of the heroes you're proficient with. Who says I can't pick sand king if we already have two gankers? Maybe we need an initiator, maybe I think my ultimate in combination with warlock's pain link will win us the game.
                            Comprehension of how the game works, bold and confident picks, team play as well as outstanding individual skill win the game. You can't make that automatic.
                            Hero combination will be exactly the same as it is now, it will potentially reduce only bad combinations witch is a good thing because it will improve quality of the games. Since you cant see what heroes are suggested you cant flame, if you know what heroes are suggested then you are not a noob and you wont be using this and you will flame regardless. If you need an initiator you would be suggested to pick an initiator. If there is a Worlock on your team you would have SK suggested so your point is useless. "bold and confident picks" seriously? Person that just started and gets into his first game will make bold and confident picks??? This will automatically give him outstanding individual skill? This will provide info that otherwise needs to be searched elsewhere and that alone should be enough for this to be implemented.
                            Last edited by Panter_d17; 05-29-2012, 11:39 AM.
                            Work in progress, feedback appreciated

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Whatever. Another function I'd disable or simply ignore. I think there are too different POV's on what MM should be at the moment. For me it's "press a button, get a game".

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Its silly to say this would limit team composition. It would make low skilled pubs actually have functionning teams while high skilled players would ignore it since they know what they're doing. There is no argument, this should be implemented.

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