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[SUGGESTION] Team Balance / Team Builder

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  • [SUGGESTION] Team Balance / Team Builder

    Hi All,
    I'm going to come out and say this, so please don't flame me. I play pubs exclusively, sometimes solo, sometimes with friends. The biggest problem I see with pubs is team balance / build is usually pretty terrible. I think the reason this happens is 2 fold:
    1. Everyone wants to carry. It's the glory role. Knowing you shut the team down by slaughtering them every team fight is pretty awesome. I prefer to play carries and gankers, I think it just goes with my personality.
    2. People just don't know any better. I think plenty of people have the attitude of "If I pick Faceless Void and farm my eyes out, I'll destroy the entire enemy team and we'll win." They focus on "I" as opposed to "Team"; or how can "I" win as opposed to how can "our team" win.


    Keeping this in mind, I usually try to fill in whatever role is needed. I'd be lying if I said I was good support; in fact, I'm probably below average. I only ward rune spots and I accidentally steal kills because I don't realize how strong my spells are (I usually play Zeus when we need a support).

    With this in mind; I think it would be very helpful for the pubbers if there was a diagram of sorts on the hero selection screen that showed the team strengths (based on soft picks).

    This is a simple radar chart I made in Excel as a mockup. The values are not based on any heroes in particular, and are random for the most part. I'm also well aware that this list of categories can be expanded further if you really wanted to, this is just a mockup:
    herotool.png

    Again, this is something small that can help newer players learn about good team comp. If they see they're on a weak team, they'll be more inclined to pick a better team. DotA is a hard game to learn, and I think a tool like this at the player select screen will help newer players out significantly.

    I might even take it a step further, and allow a player to click on the tool and it would randomly soft-pick a hero that would help the team's "rating" improve, as well as highlight some other picks that would fill in those gaps as well.

    Before some people start saying "Why don't we just play the game for them as well?" that's not the point of this. New players won't be able to improve if they don't know what mistakes they're making.

    I'd also throw out there that if a player who normally plays carries, gankers, or initiators chooses a support hero because the team needs it, this could align with GN's idea of rewarding good community players. The guy who says "Screw you, I'm picking Drow" when there are already 3 carries gets nothing; but the guy who normally would pick Drow says "OK, I'll grab Rhasta" gets some extra points or currency to use towards a hat or something.

    I'm sure the downside is people will try to farm, but hey, that's what these forums are for; to discuss ways of making the game and community better :-).

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    I'd love to see this sort of tool.

    Comment


    • #3


      Added to Graphical Summary of HUD/UI Requests merged with another solution so now it has proper thread.

      2 graphs will show teams strengths base on their choices. Players that haven't chosen their hero jet will have a role suggested for them. In addition for every allied hero picked there will be suggestion of the hero that goes well with it, and for enemy heroes there will be suggestion of a hero that can counter them. There will be reload button that will give next hero in line since heroes have multiple friends/counters. This should help new players very much and hopefully balance pub matches to some extent.
      Work in progress, feedback appreciated

      Comment


      • #4
        I guess this makes drafting easier, but that's okay IMO. This would definitely help pubs, +1

        Comment


        • #5
          EXCELLENT suggestion !! I think this would greatly benefit the game !
          CPU : Intel i5 4690k RAM : 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3. VGA : Nvidia GTX 970

          My suggestions for Dota 2 :
          Designating Captains, Challenge Maps/Skill Training, A Suggestion for Stats., In-match party chat & voice

          Personal wishlist : Auras, Weather, -EM, Sleeping neutrals, rest of neutrals implemented. And bring back Basher for all

          Best suggestion of all - a mod API for Dota 2 : solves 95% of suggestions...

          Comment


          • #6
            That chart makes me all hot and bothered. Very nicely done.

            I don't advocate giving a score based on team comp, though. Yes, obviously 5 carries are not ideal, but maybe a team wants 4 pushers and a ganker, or 5 disables for the lulz. I guess my fear is that people will get flamed just because they pick a hero that they like and it makes the team comp score 3.8 rather than 4.1. And you know how everyone who plays this game is a min/maxer who needs to have the highest number.

            Comment


            • #7
              While the idea is absolutely amazing (I'm also getting hot and bothered) I don't know if it will actually fix the team composition problem.

              A self-admitted bad support (nothing wrong with that bro) being forced to pick support indicates that people won't care what the graph looks like when the picks are done.

              However, PLUS ONE to the graph idea.

              The hat thing could also work - would need playtesting to see how the psychology of it pans out.
              Rules to be a good beta tester:
              1. Don't bring WC3 limitations to DOTA 2.
              2. Be an example. You are not here to play ALL games for fun. You are here to test so we can have a better game.
              3. Don't say that something is working as intended, unless it makes complete sense, not just because it was like DOTA 1.
              4. Being a better player than someone doesn't mean his argument is null-and-void.
              5. Use the search.
              Language Issues | Matchmaking Issues | Report/Commend Issues

              Comment


              • #8
                It could also add a bonus if a player picks a role he is good at. My supporters' graphs suck, but my carry graphs are through the roof. It could be made so if our team is lacking a carry, and I pick a carry, I'd get +2 points on the graph because I picked a role we were missing/needed and +1 because I'm good at the role I picked. It would encourage people to try and play what they are best at, while maintaining a solid team composition.
                CPU : Intel i5 4690k RAM : 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3. VGA : Nvidia GTX 970

                My suggestions for Dota 2 :
                Designating Captains, Challenge Maps/Skill Training, A Suggestion for Stats., In-match party chat & voice

                Personal wishlist : Auras, Weather, -EM, Sleeping neutrals, rest of neutrals implemented. And bring back Basher for all

                Best suggestion of all - a mod API for Dota 2 : solves 95% of suggestions...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well as i always say people that want to flame will find the reason for it, also they already do so it wouldn't change much. As for the teams score it would work on hero browsing prior to pick but I didn't show that in picture. When you just click on a hero and score drops from 3.8 to 2.3 regardless of how good you are you are putting your team in disadvantage and it is suppose to discourage you from picking it. I know that it wont make mm perfect but every little bit helps In situations when there's no support Ill rather have bad support than another good carry
                  Work in progress, feedback appreciated

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    -1. It looks all good and such but there are some problems:

                    What really is the objective here? If the point is to teach/help noobs, then, it's better to use this sort of stuff in a tutorial. A knowledgeable enough player won't need nor care for this -Well, I'd care. I'd hate to see this thing.
                    How do you calculate the team's overall score? Only this gives so much trouble, it's impractical. How do they pick in the competitive scene? What's the magic recipe? Maybe 3 pushers, 1 pinch of support and 1 carry as dessert?

                    Also, this doesn't promote experimentation, alternate ways of thinking. This will just influence noobs to follow something, not really making them improve. And this wouldnt help the mm system at all. A bad player is a bad player. If he wants to pick his favorite carry, he'll pick him regardless of a graph, of having already 3 other carries, of the enemy's team lineup, etc. Hell, this applies to any player, highly skilled players too.

                    Someone suggested in a thread about organizing the lanes. That's something I support. You would say, in a map, visual thingy, which lane you'd want to go and the hero. And that's enough. What we need is communication, not trying to hold noob's hands.

                    And a good team composition means nothing if the players are shit - even one of them being shit can make the whole thing mean nothing. And this happens all the time. Countless times I lost when I was confident in victory because of my team composition, but soon I watched in despair how terrible my teamates were.

                    Again, the MM system is the issue. If it worked, people who knows about lineups would be matched only with their peers and people who loves 5 carries lineups would fight another team of 5 carries. So, in both cases this graph would be meaningless.
                    Its true place, with some adjustements, of course, as for example, you just can't give a score to a team based in the roles of their heroes is in some form of tutorial/training.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EtherBoo View Post
                      I'd also throw out there that if a player who normally plays carries, gankers, or initiators chooses a support hero because the team needs it, this could align with GN's idea of rewarding good community players. The guy who says "Screw you, I'm picking Drow" when there are already 3 carries gets nothing; but the guy who normally would pick Drow says "OK, I'll grab Rhasta" gets some extra points or currency to use towards a hat or something.

                      I'm sure the downside is people will try to farm, but hey, that's what these forums are for; to discuss ways of making the game and community better :-).

                      Thoughts?
                      And a player who normally chooses support heroes will not get rewarded for taking the support role his team needs because he tries to get a decent team setup by default? Sorry, but -1 on that point. It would just force support players (like me) to play carries most of the time (even if they don't make any sense in the current team setup) just to get rewards. Besides, we don't really need this kind of reward. Those who deliberately choose team roles that aren't covered yet are usually rewarded... with wins.

                      Other than that, I really love your idea. A clear +1 on that.

                      Originally posted by Panter_d17 View Post
                      This. is. just. so. awesome.

                      Originally posted by kl4user View Post
                      Also, this doesn't promote experimentation, alternate ways of thinking. This will just influence noobs to follow something, not really making them improve. And this wouldnt help the mm system at all. A bad player is a bad player. If he wants to pick his favorite carry, he'll pick him regardless of a graph, of having already 3 other carries, of the enemy's team lineup, etc. Hell, this applies to any player, highly skilled players too.
                      Of course it would improve a noob's gameplay. Geez, when I started playing Dota I though CM was a nuker because she had 3 "offensive" damage spells. If I had the option to see what role this hero usually covers I might have skipped a few rather painful "OMG noob leeve dis game you suck i hobe you die frum cancer!!1!1!11oneeleven" lessons.
                      Last edited by Automedic; 05-23-2012, 10:10 AM.
                      My Workshop!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It is suggested for noobs making this an option will not have any impact on people that doesn't want to use it. Anything you put in game is useless to people that think they know the best so by that logic putting it in a tutorial or making tutorial in general is useless. Teams can be roughly scored, and in order for someone to experiment he first needs to learn something.
                        Work in progress, feedback appreciated

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Panter_d17 View Post
                          It is suggested for noobs making this an option will not have any impact on people that doesn't want to use it. Anything you put in game is useless to people that think they know the best so by that logic putting it in a tutorial or making tutorial in general is useless. Teams can be roughly scored, and in order for someone to experiment he first needs to learn something.
                          I said to put this thing in a tutorial, so, of course, tutorials aren't useless by any logic I used. Here, the noob would learn, and in a much warmer environment.
                          In fact, I can say a team's score goes from 0 (no carry) to 5 (full of carries), so a team of jah'rakal, mortred, darkterror, mercurial and azwraith is way better than a team of leshrac, rylai, alleria, ish'kafel and rhasta. But this is meaningless.

                          Of course it would improve a noob's gameplay. Geez, when I started playing Dota I though CM was a nuker because she had 3 "offensive" damage spells. If I had the option to see what role this hero usually covers I might have skipped a few rather painful "OMG noob leeve dis game you suck i hobe you die frum cancer!!1!1!11oneeleven" lessons.
                          We already have this. Valve even updated the whole role thingy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kl4user View Post
                            I said to put this thing in a tutorial, so, of course, tutorials aren't useless by any logic I used. Here, the noob would learn, and in a much warmer environment.
                            In fact, I can say a team's score goes from 0 (no carry) to 5 (full of carries), so a team of jah'rakal, mortred, darkterror, mercurial and azwraith is way better than a team of leshrac, rylai, alleria, ish'kafel and rhasta. But this is meaningless.
                            If you put it in a tutorial people that want to use carries will use them regardless of team needs so tutorials ARE useless by your logic. As for the second part first one would be rated 2.8 and second 1.6 meaning first one is better but they both suck. If you think 5 carry team should be rated with 5 that just proves that you need this more than you think :P
                            Work in progress, feedback appreciated

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ......

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