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[SUGGESTION] Team Balance / Team Builder

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  • Anirak
    replied
    Sorry to bump an old thread, but I wanted to notify people who may be interested in this topic that I am planning on working on a web app version of this very thing. I am relatively new to the game though, so I would like input from advanced players. You can find the discussion I've started here: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=110863&p=788216

    Leave a comment:


  • posnisir
    replied
    I think that noobs sometimes just don't know what the hell they should pick. So this would help. I mean, if they are trying to learn new heroes, this could push them at least a bit in the right direction. +1.

    Leave a comment:


  • BearManPig
    replied
    I agree with panter. I mean "I usually play Zeus when we need a support".. what a joke..

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  • Panter_d17
    replied
    Mockup no longer works as it is since the hero picker change but it can be implemented as togable easily. I already stated that low level players are not qualified to make suggestions due to their inexperience and that automation will be better.

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  • omegadon3
    replied
    More +1

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  • Bidouleroux
    replied
    +1, except for the point value given to the team rating. The radar chart is better on its own as it will keep people from trying to min/max (for better or worse).

    For those worrying about the screen real estate, maybe make the suggestion screen appear only when you press the "suggest hero" button. No one seems to be using that feature right now anyway so a graphical overhaul might do the trick.

    Leave a comment:


  • Panter_d17
    replied
    Originally posted by Sharpnessism View Post
    -1

    This is a bad idea because there are many different kinds of hero line ups you can have. A pusher will lack carries, a turtling line up will have fewer supports. Valve would have to update every time the metagame changes, maybe next version the old days of turtling3carries will come back and pusher line ups will be "bad".
    If first to picks are pushers tool will sugest other roles to make a pusher build, no combination is excluded by this.

    Originally posted by lamepeis View Post
    +1 in a way

    I didnt have time to read this entire thread through as i have to go, but will read everything in it later

    I like the idea as such, but it doesnt really improve anything then that you'll have a bigger possibility of having a better team comp. but in the end either some wont follow or, or some will follow it to no end, and in that sense gaining no real knowledge about the game itself.

    I think this idea could be great if they added easy mode into dota2, even though i dislike the idea about having -em in dota2, if valve do decide to do so they could possible add this, also maybe add it into the tutorial / bot games? And in normal MM games its not there, hence maybe require people to gain some knowledge of counter picks etc, so they're prepared when they come to normal MM.

    But never would i want this in any of my MM games, its just a screen filler, and with the new ui it could be somewhat annoying in a way. But i have complete faith in valve when it comes to this and im sure they've though about this
    If someone doesn't want to learn you cant make him anyway and as for no end following this should be outgrown as you learn more about the game, also this can be disabled after certain number of games played or level reached. It can be only in CO-OP or bot modes, 4 bots could pick a certain lineup and you would be suggested to fill it properly.

    Concept was made before new picker but it can be implemented it as well

    Leave a comment:


  • lamepeis
    replied
    +1 in a way

    I didnt have time to read this entire thread through as i have to go, but will read everything in it later

    I like the idea as such, but it doesnt really improve anything then that you'll have a bigger possibility of having a better team comp. but in the end either some wont follow or, or some will follow it to no end, and in that sense gaining no real knowledge about the game itself.

    I think this idea could be great if they added easy mode into dota2, even though i dislike the idea about having -em in dota2, if valve do decide to do so they could possible add this, also maybe add it into the tutorial / bot games? And in normal MM games its not there, hence maybe require people to gain some knowledge of counter picks etc, so they're prepared when they come to normal MM.

    But never would i want this in any of my MM games, its just a screen filler, and with the new ui it could be somewhat annoying in a way. But i have complete faith in valve when it comes to this and im sure they've though about this

    Leave a comment:


  • Sharpnessism
    replied
    -1

    This is a bad idea because there are many different kinds of hero line ups you can have. A pusher will lack carries, a turtling line up will have fewer supports. Valve would have to update every time the metagame changes, maybe next version the old days of turtling3carries will come back and pusher line ups will be "bad".

    Leave a comment:


  • omegadon3
    replied
    Its silly to say this would limit team composition. It would make low skilled pubs actually have functionning teams while high skilled players would ignore it since they know what they're doing. There is no argument, this should be implemented.

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  • Slaved
    replied
    Whatever. Another function I'd disable or simply ignore. I think there are too different POV's on what MM should be at the moment. For me it's "press a button, get a game".

    Leave a comment:


  • Panter_d17
    replied
    Originally posted by simplysh View Post
    I agree, I also think it would limit the number of hero combinations in games to just a hand full, making the game seem more repetitive. Also, I think it will give your team-mates a reason to flame you more for not picking the suggested heroes instead of the heroes you're proficient with. Who says I can't pick sand king if we already have two gankers? Maybe we need an initiator, maybe I think my ultimate in combination with warlock's pain link will win us the game.
    Comprehension of how the game works, bold and confident picks, team play as well as outstanding individual skill win the game. You can't make that automatic.
    Hero combination will be exactly the same as it is now, it will potentially reduce only bad combinations witch is a good thing because it will improve quality of the games. Since you cant see what heroes are suggested you cant flame, if you know what heroes are suggested then you are not a noob and you wont be using this and you will flame regardless. If you need an initiator you would be suggested to pick an initiator. If there is a Worlock on your team you would have SK suggested so your point is useless. "bold and confident picks" seriously? Person that just started and gets into his first game will make bold and confident picks??? This will automatically give him outstanding individual skill? This will provide info that otherwise needs to be searched elsewhere and that alone should be enough for this to be implemented.
    Last edited by Panter_d17; 05-29-2012, 11:39 AM.

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  • simplysh
    replied
    Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
    IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

    -1
    I agree, I also think it would limit the number of hero combinations in games to just a hand full, making the game seem more repetitive. Also, I think it will give your team-mates a reason to flame you more for not picking the suggested heroes instead of the heroes you're proficient with. Who says I can't pick sand king if we already have two gankers? Maybe we need an initiator, maybe I think my ultimate in combination with warlock's pain link will win us the game.
    Comprehension of how the game works, bold and confident picks, team play as well as outstanding individual skill win the game. You can't make that automatic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Panter_d17
    replied
    Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
    IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

    -1
    So you think this tool will merge beginners mediocre and elite? You are right about hero selection being important and that's true, but new players need to learn this before making decisions for themselves. I completely forgot to compare this to suggested builds. Does those merge noobs with pros since items build are important part of the dota. Do they make games automatic? Should we remove them as well?

    As for team score, team score could work like this. When you select hero you will get +x.x. or -x.x indicator and overall score would be shown when all heroes are picked so you cant blame someone because you don't know how they influenced the game in small degrees. Picking a carry in 3 carry team will lead to flaming regardless.

    As for enemy team score not showing up i still think its better to be there so when they see a good or bad score they will try to find reasons about it by linking it with their team synergy and counters.

    Leave a comment:


  • omegadon3
    replied
    Originally posted by Callipygius View Post
    IMO, a major part of the skill in dota is hero selection. This pregame ceremony often decides the outcome of the game, and separates the beginners from the mediocre from the skilled from the elite. Adding any kind of tool to aid hero selection in regular matchmaking is a poor idea because it greatly decreases the skill required to win games, and makes it more automatic, decreasing the magnitude of skill variance across the learning curve. While this would be fine in tutorial or non-matchmaking games, or even as a separate web tool for people to play with to plan team strategies, it does not belong in matchmaking.

    -1
    What kind of argument is that? This would visually show pubs they're doing it wrong. The roles are also generalized so the best players would ignore their team rating and pick the perfect heroes for the situation. This won't make pubs somehow pro but only make a game have a single carry and multiple supports: aka fun and balanced.

    Leave a comment:

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