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Instead of forfeiting -> How to encourage players to stay in the game.

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  • Instead of forfeiting -> How to encourage players to stay in the game.

    It's from this thread:
    http://www.playdota.com/forums/55106...rs-real-issue/

    Originally posted by Typhox
    Reward people for not giving up. For example: Giving points for winning a game fast and giving points for losing a game slowly.
    You can think of the advantages yourselves I think. "Raping" games will be shorter, interesting games will be longer. Decrease the points you get if you win the longer the game goes, which encourages you to try to win a game fast. Increase the points you'll get, if you can last very long.
    I think this could be much better base for rating/ranking than a Win/Loss-statistic, as it is more close to the real skill of the players.

    What I'd like to have would be some Contra-arguments
    I'm still thinking about it. Maybe it could be dangerous if you'd get more points for losing a game than for winning it (which could encourage you to lose a game), so the winners should still get some advantages.
    But this way could make sure that all the time that you played was not wasted because you lost in the end.
    Of course on abandon, you don't get any points.

    What do you think?

  • #2
    I like it. Not much more to say.
    SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION, SEARCH FUNCTION. DAMNIT.

    Comment


    • #3
      Now I like your opinion that we should focus on having games end earlier if one team has a advantage but, it has the side effect that games with really even team will be worth less points then games where the person stomps other the team. This changes the meta because it encourages early pushes. If for example two teams used two different strategies, one choose to push hard and fast and the other relied on end games carries. Then even with exactly the same win loss ratio the team that used carries would receive less points because they won the game later.

      How about this argument instead. Instead of lowering the points they receive for longer games. What about allowing for alternative alternative objectives through some sort of betting system. My argument would be that you don't want games to end sooner, alot of player want the games at the length they are. But you don't want is players having the feeling of hopelessness that their just wasting their time (Which since it's a video game is really a forgone conclusion but let's avoid that point for now.) What I'd argue that in a game that is definitely going to end in a loss you want players to have objectives that they can do outside just winning a game (Cause at this point they think it's hopeless.)

      Let's say during each game no matter if they won or lost players would receive a set number of points that could be used for something game related (The obvious choice would be hats.) Cause I'm making this up on the spot let's say you get 1000 points for a win and 750 points for a loss. During the game when the situation becomes Unwinnable the losing team can bet that they can hold out for a certain number of minutes. If they win the bet they get 1250 points (More then they'd get for a victory) and the loosing team would get 500 points (Less then they would get for a loss.) If they lost the bet they'd earn 250 points and the opposing would earn 1500.

      This does create problems, I think each individual player should be able to bet, not the entire team. And making sure people are accepting the betting system and not abusing it would be problematic. But I think the most important thing is allowing teams that are in a hopeless situation to have something to play for.

      Comment


      • #4
        So your idea would be more complicated than mine, or at least it seems for me. Also I'm afraid that it would get too much focused on the betting system and I feel that it would be hard to prevent abuse, but I will think about it.
        However,
        You said, that [my idea] would change the meta game rewarding Pushing strategies.
        1. IMO it's not that bad as it would give heroes that are currently underpowered in pubs a better role (buff) and it would make carries not that interesting anymore. Also early-push strategies would probably make pub games more exciting, as there are currently almost no push strategies in pubs.
        2. It would make games shorter and give them more action - instead of carries farming all the time in the jungle you would have an interest to do clashes to get your carries levelups instead of afkfarming...

        But of course, I see your problem there. Players/Heroes who focus on lategame would get lower points than early-pushers.
        But don't forget: If you go for early push instead of carry, and you don't win the game early, you will be pretty much screwed as it wouldn't be possible to survive as long as you could if you were losing with (farmed) carries - so you would only get less points. So Push strategies would be more risky, but can also be more rewarding when playing good.

        Comment


        • #5
          There is already a betting system that they are working on (Screenshot can be seen here) http://imgur.com/z4fvr if it will implemented or not seems is to be determined.

          As to your points about changing the balance the of the game. That's really a seperate issue that alot of people would have problem with.

          Comment


          • #6
            +

            Comment


            • #7
              They implemented something similar to this in the International to break ties if I remember correctly. The team who won faster has priority over the team who won slower.

              True, it may encourage teams to use early game strategies more, which isn't a bad thing IMO. Fast and aggressive dota games are more fun to watch than corn/rice/potato/whatever farming strategies. Besides, it's also a risk if your early game strategy fails, then you need a backup late game plan.


              Now the question is how to make sure players are motivated enough to want to win the game faster? Hon did a similar thing with coins, where if you win a game faster you get bonus coins to buy cosmetic stuff. I have played thousands of hon games and I can assure you that isn't a strong enough motivator. Players still drag games out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by solo123 View Post
                Now the question is how to make sure players are motivated enough to want to win the game faster? Hon did a similar thing with coins, where if you win a game faster you get bonus coins to buy cosmetic stuff. I have played thousands of hon games and I can assure you that isn't a strong enough motivator. Players still drag games out.
                True. I was suggesting ranking points as the ability to end a game fast or to last long in a game also tells you much about how strong a team is.
                However the above mentioned problem with that would be that if you focus on lategame strategy you wouldn't be able to get as many points as if you focus on early game. In my opinion, that is only a minor problem as I'd like to see - as you stated too - people to use more action-strategies.
                But yes, it's nevertheless also a question about opinion...

                Edit: Apparently you have a forfeit feature AND a Stat-recording feature in HoN?
                So I think this isn't camparable in any way :/
                Last edited by Typhox; 11-06-2011, 07:11 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've been wanting positive feedback this whole time. Rewards are better than punishment

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Typhox View Post
                    True. I was suggesting ranking points as the ability to end a game fast or to last long in a game also tells you much about how strong a team is.
                    However the above mentioned problem with that would be that if you focus on lategame strategy you wouldn't be able to get as many points as if you focus on early game. In my opinion, that is only a minor problem as I'd like to see - as you stated too - people to use more action-strategies.
                    But yes, it's nevertheless also a question about opinion...

                    Edit: Apparently you have a forfeit feature AND a Stat-recording feature in HoN?
                    So I think this isn't camparable in any way :/
                    Yes, HoN has both a Concede (forfeit) feature, that takes a full 5 man vote before 30 minutes, and a 1 minus the number of players left on the team vote post 30 minutes (meaning if someone left the game on your team already so you only have 4 people, it takes 3 to pass the concede)

                    And here is everything you can see on the average hon stats page, plus note the detailed view at the bottom
                    the level doesn't really mean anything useful, you get exp added to it at the end of each game, but the only thing it really affects is new players who start out as 'unverified' until they hit level 5 (choosing to play with ONLY verified players is an option when entering the matchmaking queue)
                    http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/playe...php?aid=242358
                    http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/playe...hp?aid=1333524

                    And here is what has been done by 3rd party sites
                    http://honstats.org/ShadowsCrush#tab:matches
                    http://honstats.org/vvv_referee#tab:matches
                    Last edited by ShadowsCrush; 11-06-2011, 08:21 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Giving points for winning a game fast and giving points for losing a game slowly concept would be cool if there was some in-game currency and a in-game shop that sell visual items.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's ok

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quite interesting indeed. 1+

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Players should never be rewarded for losing, no matter how slowly. The idea is to drive in the mentality of trying to win no matter how the odds are stacked against you not, "okay...I guess I'll get some points for losing anyways..." If you consider this then a rise of aggressive pushing strategies will be less relevant because at the end of the day--you must win the game to get anything and a pushing strat isn't always the most viable.

                            Or like I mentioned in the other thread, set a limiter on how many more points you can get based on the finish time.
                            For example:

                            40:00 = 25 points
                            35:00 = 50 points
                            30:00 = 100 points
                            25:00 = 150 points
                            20:00 = 150 points
                            15:00 = 150 points

                            So there's no benefit in trying to force a win before the 25 minute mark. Point rewards can be used on anything from achievements, accessories, to player rankings and maybe other Dota 2 features. It just depends on what Valve can come up with.

                            And Typhox, I think you're overdoing it making all these threads. They will all devolve into the same thing eventually, so it's just redundant.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jeity View Post
                              Players should never be rewarded for losing, no matter how slowly.
                              No. If you don't reward people for staying in game, they will just quit the game. It doesn't matter if through ff or just leaving. If you don't get the players to stay in the game, the whole feature would be worthless + you get the problem that players will get the points as soon as the enemy team gives up and thus remove the best advantages.

                              Originally posted by Jeity View Post
                              So there's no benefit in trying to force a win before the 25 minute mark. Point rewards can be used on anything from achievements, accessories, to player rankings and maybe other Dota 2 features. It just depends on what Valve can come up with.
                              Yes.

                              Originally posted by Jeity View Post
                              And Typhox, I think you're overdoing it making all these threads. They will all devolve into the same thing eventually, so it's just redundant.
                              No. Maybe. This thread was the first I created. Nobody cared, so I continued writing in that Add forfeit thread which I didn't create. Then I realized that noone cared about other alternatives to forfeit so I created a different thread for that. Simple. Works only if people follow the rules though...

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