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Matchmaking, ranking, team features

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  • Matchmaking, ranking, team features

    The thread is meant to discuss about whether the features should be implemented or not and how it could/should be done.

    The whole idea about most of the features is summarized in few words, the higher the skill lvl of the dota gamers, the more entertaining their games, the more viewers on dotaTV, the happier the sponsors, the bigger esports game dota2 is. Creating the best possible practice environment for all skills lvls is key.


    5v5 clanwars
    - clans with more then 5 members should be possible, they all should contribute to ONE clan ranking, no matter which of the - lets say 10 - members are playing
    - they should even be able to play games simultaneously, forming two teams themselves and press “search”(abuse impossible, because they win and loose points at twice the rate)
    - fav ping option (adjustable, 50-100 e.g.) (dota2 will be big enough to allow the players such a decadence on every skill lvl)
    - max ping option (adjustable, 200 e.g.)
    - own tactic (and/or picks) should be optionally adjustable (I ll explain that later)
    - enemy tactic (and/or picks) should be adjustable (if ppl want to practice agains something special)
    - max search time option (adjustable)
    - expanded search button
    - after the max search time is up or the “expanded search” button is pressed the favorite settings should be abandoned (max ping used instead of fav ping, tactical preferences for the enemy ignored)
    - autosave function for all the search settings(as already known from most valve shooters)

    Few explanations why I think certain things are important.
    Clans with more then 5 members are especially useful for all low-high clans, for all non pro clans, for the 99% of all dota gamers, basically. Because that way they dont need to be hyper good organized and can play with a changing lineup, with members which ever are online at that time. Allowing them play simultaneously is important for the rare days when every clan member happens to be online at the same time. Having 5 members online and ready to play but not being able to because another part of the clan is already playing, would be very frustrating.
    The possibility to adjust own and/or enemy tactic might sound weird, since no one want to reveal the own tactic before the last pick is done, yes its true, no one does, in a competitive match. The dota2 matchmaking is competitive but its also practice. For a team that is preparing for a lan event, a cup or an league match it can be very useful to practice a specific tactic they lack proper execution. Its also very useful to play against a specific tactic they usually suck against to get better against it fast, because most of their enemys in the matchmaking play this tactic. With the option of selective practice dota2 gamers will become more skilled at faster pace, which the whole dota2 scene will benefit from.
    Yes I see the abuse potential, I see some “funny” people choosing “push” as their fav tactic and picking “turtle” heroes instead, shit happens, some games then will have to be played against the “wrong” enemy tactic, but many other wont. Every time the enemy pick the “wrong” tactic common sense is asked, to notice what the enemy is doing and pick/play accordingly.


    solos + stacks (-ap or -cm, adjustable mode)
    - solos + stacks should play in one pool ( that will help the solo player get a glimps of the true dota, the best dota, dota with actual team play)
    - stacks - depending on their size - should get a rating bonus, e.g. a 4 low skilled player stack should be treated as a low++ stack get an low++ 5th and be able/allowed to play against 5 low++ solo players (that way stacks will not be dominant and owning all the solo players too much if at all, at that points its the matter of balance and how high the rating bonus is set by valve)
    - stacks looking for addition should have the option to search for a specific “hero role” (support, gang etc.)
    - solo players should state their favorite role
    - stacks should have the option to state the favorite tactic they want to play
    - solo players should have the option to search for a specific tactic of the stack they eventually will join a game with
    - stacks and solo players should have the option to pick the fav tactic of their enemys the want to play against
    - matched teams stack + solo or 5 solo should be able to chat/speak after they were matched as a team and while they are searching for the right enemy
    - they also should be able to leave that team again, if they have what ever differences and dont want to play with each other
    - fav ping option (adjustable, 50-100 e.g.) (dota2 will be big enough to allow the players such a decadence on every skill lvl)
    - max ping option (adjustable, 200 e.g.)
    - max search time option (adjustable)
    - expanded search button
    - after the max search time is up or the “expanded search” button is pressed the favorite settings should be abandoned (max ping used instead of fav ping, tactical preferences for the enemy and the hero role of the searched m8 ignored)
    - autosave function for all the search settings(as already known from most valve shooters)

    I have one possible idea how valve could achieve a fast working matchmaking that pleases everyone. I assume thousands of ppl search for games with tons of special settings towards their m8s, enemys, tactics etc must be difficult to handle and need a work around/simplification. I think some kind of presorting would be helpful.
    Basicly there could be different type of mm pools where players + stacks are thrown in according to their preferences. A 4player stack of low++ skill, wanting to play push and searching for a support player as their 5th is automaticly thrown into a “low++, push, support searching pool”. A solo low++ player wanting to play a push tactic and a support hero is automatically thrown in that pool as well. Same goes for all players with the similar parameters, they all land in the same pool and are then easier to match.
    After the teams are formed the search for the enemy begins. Maybe the search for the enemy could even start simultaneously while the teams are being formed, e.g. 4stack is matched against 5 solo, while they still need a 5th(an info should be displayed, enemy found, w8ting for 5th). The game start as soon as the 5th is found. The speed to find a 5th can then be “accelarated” by pressing the “expand search” button, abandoning their wishes for their 5th man and taking any they can find, just to start the game faster.


    - all the mentioned options should be optional of course and there must be one big play button for as easy as possible start
    - all in all the dota2 matchmaking should be the pure pwnage and outweight the dota1 years of suffering with ggc, garena, darer, iccup, pickup, sig, vip, dotalicious, all that time without proper matchmaking


    e: an add to the "stacks - depending on their size - should get a rating bonus" part
    stacks depending on their size and the number of times they played together should get an rating bonus. Since friends who play togther more often have better teamplay. This bonus should decay over time, e.g. 100 games played togteher a year ago shouldnt have the same bonus as 100 games played togteher last week.

    e2:
    i never understood why s2 waited so long to bring the most important feature into hon, the special feature that would set hon apart from dota, the feature u cant get anywhere on the web as perfect as INGAME, clan interface/support, clan MM and clan ladder. Now valve is doing the same mistake and i try to see it positive, a second chance to understand it, maybe i will manage it this time, or i wait for the next game, with the same mistake, year after year.

    Originally posted by daarkside View Post
    The whole idea about most of the features is summarized in few words, the higher the skill lvl of the dota gamers, the more entertaining their games, the more viewers on dotaTV, the happier the sponsors, the bigger esports game dota2 is. Creating the best possible practice environment for all skills lvls is key.
    the key word in this key quote is ALL
    - clan support with clan mm and ladder would help newer and lower skilled players to get better train partners(on their level, which is important beacuse easy wins and hard stomps are not very motivating to go on, create tension in new and old clans, can even lead to disbands) (its easier to see what the enemy clan did right to win the game and copy it, if the thing they did right is on the same level, if the loser is able to see it.)

    - get train partners faster and easier(the usual way of irc/ingame chat search is awful and more importantly time consuming, the more time you waste searching an likewise skilled enemy the less time you have to actually train!)

    - ingame clan system and ladder reaches even the public players (because entering is much easier then forming an team outside the game, on some forums, join and 3rd party league on some page with 27 pages of rules, be on time for official games several times a week) (reaching public players is VERY importan for the future of competetive dota, old players wont continue forever, as seen in many older esport games, they will quit eventually, its a fact!(2nd and 3rd row players, semi-pros, quit every month, but no one notice it), it would be wise to support the rise of new talents. The future might seem far away but new talents would increase the viewability of dota today, as they arise they either replace the old players or they force them to up their skill level, providing more entertaining games for the fans, which will create bigger viewer nubers, making the sponsors happy.

    - ingame clan system bound group of players together, invite them to play more often and longer, because the environment they play in is better, because they feel responsible to play as good as they can to not let their mates down, to not loose ladder points. They will play more often because their mates need them so they have 5 to start a cw mm ladder search.


    Wake up valve, you are wasting dotas potential, it is enormous
    Last edited by daarkside; 01-16-2013, 06:54 AM.
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  • #2
    I see what you did there.... Anyway, a lot of great suggestions, i support you. I think all these options could really improve the gaming experience if they are optional. This will require a lot of testing to ensure we don't introduce features that are rarely used by teams or clans. A lot of people will be needed to put all these option on the current matchmaking and, at the same time, keep the waiting time for a game reasonably low. I see that this could be the most difficult task for Valve to accomplish, equilibrium between time to wait and usefullness of a custom setting. A very important point though.

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    • #3
      it is a difficult task for valve to get this features working, but i dont think its their job to hit the perfect point between functionality and w8ting time.
      its up to the players what they want, and what they are willing to pay(time is money^^).

      and yes of course all that features need a huge player base to work or even to test and to balance, something not doable in the current beta stage.
      nevertheless i thought it is important to bring such ideas early, allowing valve better planing.
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      [Suggestion]Matchmaking, ranking, team features

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      • #4
        Sounds very interesting!

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        • #5
          Many great ideas for MM! Support.
          Biggest German eSports Community - Biggest German Dota 2 Community

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          • #6
            i support this too

            Comment


            • #7
              +1

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with most of this. I find a lot of 4 or 5 man stacks in the match making queue. I guess since we're in the beta the MM queue is a bit random now, but as the game gets developed, the problem will be dealt with.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingRaven View Post
                  I agree with most of this. I find a lot of 4 or 5 man stacks in the match making queue. I guess since we're in the beta the MM queue is a bit random now, but as the game gets developed, the problem will be dealt with.
                  for sure, i am concerned in which way valve might solve it, the conervative way would aim to please the whiners and split solo and stack games entirely
                  this thread is to find another way, a way which the whole dota2 scene would benefit from in the long run
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                  [Suggestion]anti spoiler replay feature
                  [Suggestion]Matchmaking, ranking, team features

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                  • #10
                    well i think is a good idea..
                    also i would love to se some benefits to include certain amount of noob players in each pro teams. like extra points for teaching people or something like that.
                    like a clan could have a sub clan for players in development. would be cool if a clan could have like a training ground for players, where they could teach and raise new players to their clan!!
                    that would be just AWSOME!

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                    • #11
                      support!

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                      • #12
                        Agree with this also.

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                        • #13
                          This should come AFTER the learn tab is up(tutorials, mentoring). Some of the ideas sounds too complicated for the matchmaking, specially concerning balancing. Should probably be delegated to Learn tab.
                          I'm sorry Valve, but the only way I know how to coach players is with tough love.

                          We all play for fun, try hards are just WAY BETTER than you. Read this.

                          dev.dota2.com is about development, if you want to QQ about your last match (trust me, matchmaking algorithm has nothing to do with it): Click here

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                          • #14
                            First, I remember you saying on another thread that you don't care too much about the solo or public queues, because your focus will be clan wars. I don't think that even 20% of the entirety of Dota will be able to accomplish most of this, remember that Dota 2 will be open to all who want to join it, as long as they can follow the rules. Equal Opportunity bs though, can stay the hell out.

                            5v5 clanwars
                            I am pretty sure that all of the above is already going to be implemented or simplified, excluding the "Pick tactics" parts. In all honesty, those sound far more tedious than they should be and are indeed easily abuseable, and doe players who don't usually play with clans they lose out of this completely.

                            The clan tactics, honestly sound very tedious the way you have explained them. In terms of "practice" one of the most important aspects of Dota has always been, and will always be, the players abilities to react and adjust themselves to the actions and strategies of the enemy team. As much practice as one would be able to do here, the chances of the real matches playing out like the practice matches are slim to none. Also, some of the tactics are highly advanced compared to other tactics, and the vast majority of the Dota community is not going to be anywhere near the skill level required to understand those tactics. Being honest, sounds harsh because it kind of is.


                            solos + stacks (-ap or -cm, adjustable mode)
                            A lot of this sounds like Equal Opportunity ideas. Which quite frankly destroy the competitive side of the game. Simply put, in order for this game to remain competitive you must have winners and losers. It cannot fall into the "Everyone gets a slice of the 24 karat golden cake because the golden cake is only 8 karat gold." pit of hell that is Equal Opportunity. The "Equal Opportunity" that everyone gets is the chance to play. I will be the first to admit that some people will end up lower than they probably should be in the match maker, but giving them a stacked boost? Thats literally spoon feeding wins and false mmr to them.

                            The other half sounds like forcing solo players, who just aren't interested in clans (And there are people out there like that) to try and play the game on the competitive clan level. There are multiple tiers of the games competitive scene, and some people will just settle down on one particular scene. I assure you they are aware of the other scenes, they just aren't interested in them.

                            And, more or less, it just seems... strange. A 4 low++ stack gets to fight a 5 low++ stack? Are these like groups where 4 of the players have vastly lower MMR than the 5th player on their team? That because of that get to fight a full team of 5 low++ players? So these "Stacks" are simply premade groups? And we literally search based on what "Role" someone wants to play? This is going to severely split the community to redundant levels and would increase queue times by a LOT. It would also just over complicate the issue to a redundant level. It is very much like the dungeon finder tool for World of Warcraft, some people will simply list themselves as "support" in order to quickly get into a group and then pick sniper.

                            Allowing them to leave? Because they don't like their team? We learn to start trying, albeit poorly, to deal with our problems in pre school. Few people below the age of 14 will play Dota 2 I'm pretty sure.


                            Some of your ideas are good, but the good ones are probably already planned to be implemented into the game. The ping searches, they will probably happen automatically because that's dependent on your system, internet connection, geography, and many other factors. Search functions will almost certainly be expanded before the full release of the game. But most of these ideas are just so tedious when you think of how they will be implemented, think of the gaming system in which these systems are used by everyone. It would be, simply, tedious.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by daarkside View Post
                              for sure, i am concerned in which way valve might solve it, the conervative way would aim to please the whiners and split solo and stack games entirely
                              this thread is to find another way, a way which the whole dota2 scene would benefit from in the long run
                              This is Valve. Not Riot Games, and not S2 Games. Valve has an outstanding record for customer service support, listening to their communities, and putting their foots down when things need to be done right. They pay attention to their gamer base, they don't just please whiners and they love competition. Also, pleasing whiners isn't the conservative way. That is the Liberal way.

                              To be honest, as long as Valve is able to control the troll population, prevent smurfing, and generally deal lasting punishment to those who truly deserve it, the match maker will work fine. Usually it is things like "Solo mid or I feed" that costs people games or smurfs in the low level brackets that causes problems in the match maker. If anyone is going to succeed in this, its going to be Valve.

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