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Add Traits, forget about Achievements

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  • Add Traits, forget about Achievements

    The problem
    Every game has some sort of achievement system or reward system;
    Hero-skill bars are not as rewarding as an achievement; in fact they can be frustrating
    Commendation is rarely used (at least this is how i feel about it) and only for those who beg;
    Lack of support players; Current stats only benefit carrys, since the only measurable or countable stat is K/D/A and GPM/ExPM (carry based stat)
    No loser-consolation price; it gan get really frustrating to play an awesome match and yet lose

    A possible solution
    Add a trait system, forget about Achievemnts;

    Background
    I notice every time im about to launch dota2 that valve is expecting some sort of achievement system with really useless achievements (imo) like "eat three trees using tangos, or stuff like that. It is known that reward systems encourage gamers to keep on playing but i thing for a sport-like game like dota achievements are not what gamers need.

    Know your target
    Dota players are into for the sport-like feel we get, we are playing for the feel we get after a match is over and our experience about it (unlike rpg players who are there for the powercreep feeling). We want our team to win and we put ourselves our very best to make team work as a whole and lead it to good port. It is incredibly rewarding when your team wins as it is frustrating when it loses. The best experience dota players search for is the "after game" experience and not the "while playing" experience, its true that its a fun game and you can have tons of joy by simply playing, leveling and killing, but its the sum of all the "while playing" experiences during the match and the upcomming victory that you enjoy the most, and this is imo, a point to exploit. (i shall write another thread about this in the future, about how game ends to dramatically and the "after game" is "lost"; unless you are in party and/or add the guys you played with to a party)

    Traits: The idea
    The Trait system would be an after-game award for specific stuff you did well during the game. For example, if i successfully escaped X ammount of times from an almost certain death by using TP, or by dagging, or by getting into shadow and Tp, etc, i would get "Escape Artist" trait for that game and that game only. I came up with a bunch of Traits that could encourage skills over the K/D/A system which, is ok, but does not reflect the good player totally (reason for which you do not see many supports):

    All-seeing-eye Trait: for whom bought the greatest amount of obs, sentry, dust, gems in the game. (you need to have a minimum WPM to qualify; WPM = Wards per minute)
    Escape Artist Trait: i already mentioned this one in example avobe
    Disabler Trait: for whom disabled the most heroes during game (i guess a minimum DPM wil be needed and would depend on heros skills as well)
    Combat Medic Trait: for whom healed the most heroes damage points during game, this should count potions, meka, even tether
    Mana pool Trait: same as combat medic but for mana.
    Greed trait: for whom tacked the most neutral camps (minimum required to qualify)
    Fearless: for whom initiated the most teamfights or ganks (minimum is required too); i guess this one is really hard to implement, but i guess valve can do it
    Among others.

    Why this will help solving the original problem
    By adding Traits to the end of each game, you ensure your players will be rewarded (if aplicable), and, give them the satisfaction every reward gives (other than the regular chest and items which seem to be random). Unlike chest and items, these rewards are skill based, which are very rewarding (?) for the players, and not frustrating as the hero-bars -.- . Since this is an automatic system and not a player-opinion based (which, in the end, player-opinions are popularity contest and not actual skill tests), you remove the every-game commendation beggers (or not :P)
    Another important thing is that players will start valueing supports, if the game thinks supports are important, players will think so too, and many may start supporting in order to get these traits.
    The best part about this is that, no matter if you win or lose, you can get Traits anyway. So it would be some sort of consolation price, which will diminish the amount of frustration by losing.

    Thanks for reading and i appologize for my english, hope you like the idea!

  • #2
    I think I missed the part about why I actually want traits, if all I get is a message at the end of the game saying I healed the most, I really don't care. (Well I care, I think this might be a cool addition, but NOT to replace achievements)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Complex View Post
      or by getting into shadow and Tp
      Shadow ..... yea ... this person is obviously new to dota

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds interesting.
        I actually proposed a rather similar idea to that, but what I wanted was to let those 'traits' be kept in your profile page and be visible for others. And the traits would mainly show what kind of heroes you play(support/carry/etc), on what game modes(ap/sd/rd/cm) and other stuff that describes you as a player. So your teammaes can easier 'undersand' what to expect from you.
        Anyway, as long as it doesn't change player's attitude to gameplay(that's probably the shortest way to describe all possible problems with 'farming' traits), I'd love to see something like that in game.

        Comment


        • #5
          errr no. let's explain this in parts.

          Originally posted by Complex View Post
          Lack of support players; Current stats only benefit carrys, since the only measurable or countable stat is K/D/A and GPM/ExPM (carry based stat)
          No loser-consolation price; it gan get really frustrating to play an awesome match and yet lose
          Mostly, a pub. You can't control what they pick, nor their stupidity about glorifying the carry will stop. There is loser-consolation price: They receive BP and itens EXACTLY like the winning team.

          Originally posted by Complex View Post
          All-seeing-eye Trait: for whom bought the greatest amount of obs, Combat Medic Trait: for whom healed the most heroes damage points during game, Fearless: for whom initiated the most teamfights...
          These are very, very exploitable, griefers and ragers would laugh at that.

          Originally posted by Complex View Post
          The best part about this is that, no matter if you win or lose, you can get Traits anyway. So it would be some sort of consolation price, which will diminish the amount of frustration by losing.
          Nothing can diminish the frustation by losing, after all, YOURE LOSING. DEAL WITH IT.

          Anyway, it seems you're new to dota =X.

          Comment


          • #6
            FYI: ive been playing dota since 2005 =~

            Originally posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
            Mostly, a pub. You can't control what they pick, nor their stupidity about glorifying the carry will stop. There is loser-consolation price: They receive BP and itens EXACTLY like the winning team.
            True, you cannot control what users pick, but you, as a game designer can help the selection of X or Y picks by adding this kind of stuff. And yes, im talking about pubs, where every dota player starts, not the few minority that plays CM or Tournaments. Im adding this as a suggestion to increase the level of dota for the vast mayority that plays pubs.
            Game designers can help the use of diferent metagaming and heroes by adding statistics and traits, if game designers value or consider a possitive thing to stack neutral creeps, or to add wards, etc, players will notice and therefor will try to do it for their own good at first, and then will realize that it helps out the team, learning a valuable lesson.

            Originally posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
            These are very, very exploitable, griefers and ragers would laugh at that.
            False. With the right algoritms you can detect whether if the user is exploiting or not. If user is not exploiting, add point, else ignore.
            (im Game designer and programmer myself, so im not talking in the blur here)

            Originally posted by MaxBeoulve View Post
            Nothing can diminish the frustation by losing, after all, YOURE LOSING. DEAL WITH IT.
            False again, whenever i lose a game and get a cool item dont feel as frustrating as not getting anything. I go all like: "well, at least i got this awesome prize" Thats why its called consolation prize.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Andriuha View Post
              Shadow ..... yea ... this person is obviously new to dota
              im sorry if my english was not good enough, "fog" might be the correct word? anyways, i hope you liked the idea

              Comment


              • #8
                I read the entire thing, I realy like your idea and you have my support on that. I see no reason for the loosing team to win something too, and the people who have done amazing things in the game will be rewarded with that idea.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hadgehog View Post
                  Sounds interesting.
                  I actually proposed a rather similar idea to that, but what I wanted was to let those 'traits' be kept in your profile page and be visible for others. And the traits would mainly show what kind of heroes you play(support/carry/etc), on what game modes(ap/sd/rd/cm) and other stuff that describes you as a player. So your teammaes can easier 'undersand' what to expect from you.
                  Anyway, as long as it doesn't change player's attitude to gameplay(that's probably the shortest way to describe all possible problems with 'farming' traits), I'd love to see something like that in game.
                  Yeah, i thought it could be displayed at your profile, as an average of your mosly common traits. Say, if you get in 1 or 2 games the "All seeing eye" trait, over 500 games u had, that trait should not show up, since you are obviously not gonna buy many wards or dust during the game and that could confuse your teammates.

                  I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody. The hardest thing about matchmaking (i guess) is to determine whether the match is going to be balanced or not since the information it uses must be k/d/a, gpm, epm, if matchmaking could use this kinda traits and fix teams according to their profile the experience would be enhanced.

                  Id love to read your post, so if you can add a link somewhere (so i dont have to search among your 432 posts it will be gr8!!)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Complex View Post
                    Yeah, i thought it could be displayed at your profile, as an average of your mosly common traits. Say, if you get in 1 or 2 games the "All seeing eye" trait, over 500 games u had, that trait should not show up, since you are obviously not gonna buy many wards or dust during the game and that could confuse your teammates.

                    I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody. The hardest thing about matchmaking (i guess) is to determine whether the match is going to be balanced or not since the information it uses must be k/d/a, gpm, epm, if matchmaking could use this kinda traits and fix teams according to their profile the experience would be enhanced.

                    Id love to read your post, so if you can add a link somewhere (so i dont have to search among your 432 posts it will be gr8!!)
                    AFAIK the information match making uses is wins and loses, not kills etc.
                    Including this kind of thing in match making would dig a trench for each person that's hard to get out of. If you play support a lot you will be expected to continue doing so, regardless of what you want.


                    Also, I doubt one can make a reliable anti-griefing system for the wards, and even then one probably wouldn't as it's much easier to change or remove the 'trend.'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MajorTom View Post
                      AFAIK the information match making uses is wins and loses, not kills etc.
                      Including this kind of thing in match making would dig a trench for each person that's hard to get out of. If you play support a lot you will be expected to continue doing so, regardless of what you want.


                      Also, I doubt one can make a reliable anti-griefing system for the wards, and even then one probably wouldn't as it's much easier to change or remove the 'trend.'
                      This is why i like brainstorming, thanks for feedback! Maybe what could be added is a feature that would ask you what kind of role you want to play for your next match (before searching for the game) and it will match you acording to your skill level for specific role (acording to the trait system). Say im good at carry but i rarely play support, so my carry level would be high and my support level low. If i want to play a support, i would select my role as support before searching for a match and matchmaking would set me up with people that needs a support of my level.
                      As a conclution: The more information and data there is available, the more information can matchmaking use in order to fix balanced teams and create fun games.
                      I know there might be exploits with this system: example: i could select support and play carry anyways, abusing of the poor leveled guys. but with some brainstorming and work you can get a really goodlooking matchmaking system and some cool traits to encourage other roles other than carry or gankers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Complex View Post
                        Yeah, i thought it could be displayed at your profile, as an average of your mosly common traits. Say, if you get in 1 or 2 games the "All seeing eye" trait, over 500 games u had, that trait should not show up, since you are obviously not gonna buy many wards or dust during the game and that could confuse your teammates.

                        I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody. The hardest thing about matchmaking (i guess) is to determine whether the match is going to be balanced or not since the information it uses must be k/d/a, gpm, epm, if matchmaking could use this kinda traits and fix teams according to their profile the experience would be enhanced.

                        Id love to read your post, so if you can add a link somewhere (so i dont have to search among your 432 posts it will be gr8!!)
                        http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=47644
                        Looking at the feedback there, I guess I used very bad wording to express myself :P Or it just was an unpopular idea at that time...
                        But as I see it, the idea was rather similar to yours.
                        Last edited by Hadgehog; 08-09-2012, 11:38 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody.

                          ^ This is a good idea , but traits themselves are useless its not tribes:ascend, because even in few traits you suggested there are those that will fuck up player that tries to do it, like most hero stunned. Player going for this achievement will try to stun more heroes with lion-like stun ability resulting in more situations where he could stun 1 hero and get kill but instead of trying to stun 2 and failing. Can say the same about buying wards while trying to "outbuy" enemy sup instead of buyng bracers or something else that he might need more, to sum up

                          Nothing from outside the game should pressure player to do things he normally wouldn't do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Andriuha View Post
                            I think this could also help matchmaking, by using this traits and describing players as support/carry/etc, matchmaking could use this information to create wellbalanced teams and create a better experience for everybody.

                            ^ This is a good idea , but traits themselves are useless its not tribes:ascend, because even in few traits you suggested there are those that will fuck up player that tries to do it, like most hero stunned. Player going for this achievement will try to stun more heroes with lion-like stun ability resulting in more situations where he could stun 1 hero and get kill but instead of trying to stun 2 and failing. Can say the same about buying wards while trying to "outbuy" enemy sup instead of buyng bracers or something else that he might need more, to sum up

                            Nothing from outside the game should pressure player to do things he normally wouldn't do.
                            Totally agreed, thats why i did not present these as achievements but as Traits or mastery skills, all in all, u might fail the first time to master these traits, but there is great reward in the end, as you said, if a lion concentrates in stunning more than one enemy at a time, it might cost him a couple of deaths, but he would have learned when to aim for 1 single target and when to aim for more targets. These lion player will gain knowledge and learn how to stand in a teamfight in order to effectivly stun enemies and avoid death.
                            These should not be achievements, achievements are things you do just once, these are Traits, mastery skills, gained by those how have leaned how to successfully do certain stuff during gameplay.
                            The idea about this is to show players that there are other things other than K/D/A and farming in dota to be mastered. With your concept quote: "Nothing from outside the game should pressure player to do things he normally wouldn't do." Valve should remove the statistics since it enhances farming and hero killing other than destroting towers and ancient (which is how you win the match).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Complex View Post
                              Totally agreed, thats why i did not present these as achievements but as Traits or mastery skills, all in all, u might fail the first time to master these traits, but there is great reward in the end, as you said, if a lion concentrates in stunning more than one enemy at a time, it might cost him a couple of deaths, but he would have learned when to aim for 1 single target and when to aim for more targets. These lion player will gain knowledge and learn how to stand in a teamfight in order to effectivly stun enemies and avoid death.
                              So we need traits to show obvious things like "U NEED TO STUN MORE PEOPLE IF U CAN" ? thats just retarded , people who dont understand things like this shouldn'tnot play at all

                              Originally posted by Complex View Post
                              These should not be achievements, achievements are things you do just once, these are Traits, mastery skills, gained by those how have leaned how to successfully do certain stuff during gameplay.
                              Well lets make achievements for 1 then 10 then 100 wards placed , how is it different ?

                              Originally posted by Complex View Post
                              The idea about this is to show players that there are other things other than K/D/A and farming in dota to be mastered. With your concept quote: "Nothing from outside the game should pressure player to do things he normally wouldn't do." Valve should remove the statistics since it enhances farming and hero killing other than destroting towers and ancient (which is how you win the match).
                              KDA is a stat is vissible for all players. Removing it would add more problems for pro teams , they will just need to write that info on the paper. Or do i hear you suggesting showing realtime how many wards was bought by a player ?

                              The point still the same "Nothing from outside the game should pressure player to do things he normally wouldn't do"

                              Comment

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