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[Suggestion] Allow for custom In-House leagues.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by sterls View Post
    Having custom rules is a terrible idea, it leads to elitest attitudes and more flaming. For example, say league X has a rule that says only 1 sheepstick allowed per team. Then a person from league X plays some matchmaking in their spare time, and plays against a team that has 5 int heroes, and gets 5 sheepsticks because dota allows you to do so. Then the person bitches and whines that the enemy team uses cheeseball tactics that take no skill and are banned in league X for a reason. Then the other team says "this isn't league X, deal with it"... etc. etc. just leads to flaming.
    Or they should just ignore their complaining enemies and enjoy there win instead of reactig to them.

    I am also pretty stuffed hearing the word "elitist" thrown arround like mad. That`s just as bad as Core and Casual Gamer. Thos meaningless words annoy the hell out of me.
    But I find it quite interesting that you all don`t like those "elitists", but still want them in your games instead of their own private place. Having those that you hate away from you can`t really be a Disadvantage.

    Also IH-leagues will blossom anyway. First DotA IH-leagues started with a simple IRC Bot, that would organize games (which were manually hosted afterwards) and would manage the results ( obviously manually entered after the Game).

    And also imagine me saying: " AR in matchmaking ?!? TOTALLY RUINS THE STATISTICS!!! DON`t wanT!11"

    Obviously I don`t mean it. But some will probably think so. As I stated in the starting post: You will not manage to make everyone happy.

    Also I kinda like the idea of my enemies been "known-faces" (people you allready played against) without the need of finding 9 other players myself. Something Matchmaking will never deliver.

    Comment


    • #32
      funny talking about that in beta with 2500 players.
      ihs will be irrelevant because good players will be in the top of the ladder/mm-system and will be matched with others from the top, but now with these few players its normal to get some noobs matched with.
      doing ih just seperate the community and create some bullshit elite crap, the worst thing in wc3 dota was the 3rd party programs and hundreds of different platforms/leagues etc. BUT now finally valve can manage to bring the whole community to 1 platform, 1 ladder, why trying to divide them?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 1323 View Post
        funny talking about that in beta with 2500 players.
        ihs will be irrelevant because good players will be in the top of the ladder/mm-system and will be matched with others from the top, but now with these few players its normal to get some noobs matched with.
        doing ih just seperate the community and create some bullshit elite crap, the worst thing in wc3 dota was the 3rd party programs and hundreds of different platforms/leagues etc. BUT now finally valve can manage to bring the whole community to 1 platform, 1 ladder, why trying to divide them?
        this.

        We need auto join custom channels (associated with steam groups) for different communities so that they can find each other easily and chat. If they wanna play a game among themselves, either they party up in 5 and go match making or 10 people can go practice (and there should be option to enable/disable DotaTV in practice). That's it.

        Don't divide the community, for god's sake.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 1323 View Post
          funny talking about that in beta with 2500 players.
          ihs will be irrelevant because good players will be in the top of the ladder/mm-system and will be matched with others from the top, but now with these few players its normal to get some noobs matched with.
          doing ih just seperate the community and create some bullshit elite crap, the worst thing in wc3 dota was the 3rd party programs and hundreds of different platforms/leagues etc. BUT now finally valve can manage to bring the whole community to 1 platform, 1 ladder, why trying to divide them?
          \

          This.

          But this is wrong, and I'll tell you why. Look at every single other MOBA. HoN's matchmaking was supposed to have the 'best against best' mentality, but then the sad fact of that, I believe if my stats are right, around 1 in 100 players was about 1800. 1800 was 'moderately-skilled'. 1800 games took about 5 minutes to find - 1900 was the skilled bracket - way less, going into the top ~350 players. The queue took too long, around 15-30 minutes, so a meeting place of great players was established on IRC called the IHL. This removed seriously long queue times for great players.

          History repeats itself, even with a skill rating system in place, HoN's top had gone to IRC. It's exclusive, you always know who will be on your team, and, frankly, some of the best HoN games I played were there. Along with how people remember the good games in IHCS/2 and, well, if you're really old, IHL on east 5 years ago. Those are fun, exclusive and those leagues always form because people want to take out the mystery in who their teammates will be. One bad player ruins DOta 2 games.

          So if you DO do full matchmaking, yu'll have to do this:

          1) Fast queue times for top 1 or 2% of players.
          2) Reason to stay on the Dota 2 platform. There are already IRC channels doing DotA 2 inhouses and the best players do not actively do beta testing with the general population.
          3). It's not 'elitist'. It's survival of the fittest.

          Comment


          • #35
            Remember that you are on the dev forum of a game that is far from finished. You should suggest how Valve can make good matchmaking for top players, rather than say it's not possible.
            What can Valve implement to address the issues at hand?
            Steam: bQttger

            Comment


            • #36
              I would say it is a little ambitious to create a league type of thing without 3rd party programs, but Valve can definitely do it. It's going to take a lot of time and testing, but that what beta is for.

              They would probably need to create a whole new system that is separate from the typical in-game chat-channels/matchmaking system.

              Something along the lines of a new dedicated channel for certain leagues and people would have to register their leagues with valve to prevent a massive amount of random leagues. All leagues should be on a selectable list for all players, but it can either be public or private (needs invite/vouch). From that point dedicated captains can vouch whoever they want on their team from the channel.

              All this is very rough, but it is a difficult process. I believe if anyone it is Valve that will make a good system.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingRaven View Post
                \

                This.

                But this is wrong, and I'll tell you why. Look at every single other MOBA. HoN's matchmaking was supposed to have the 'best against best' mentality, but then the sad fact of that, I believe if my stats are right, around 1 in 100 players was about 1800. 1800 was 'moderately-skilled'. 1800 games took about 5 minutes to find - 1900 was the skilled bracket - way less, going into the top ~350 players. The queue took too long, around 15-30 minutes, so a meeting place of great players was established on IRC called the IHL. This removed seriously long queue times for great players.

                History repeats itself, even with a skill rating system in place, HoN's top had gone to IRC. It's exclusive, you always know who will be on your team, and, frankly, some of the best HoN games I played were there. Along with how people remember the good games in IHCS/2 and, well, if you're really old, IHL on east 5 years ago. Those are fun, exclusive and those leagues always form because people want to take out the mystery in who their teammates will be. One bad player ruins DOta 2 games.

                So if you DO do full matchmaking, yu'll have to do this:

                1) Fast queue times for top 1 or 2% of players.
                2) Reason to stay on the Dota 2 platform. There are already IRC channels doing DotA 2 inhouses and the best players do not actively do beta testing with the general population.
                3). It's not 'elitist'. It's survival of the fittest.
                several reasons why this is bad, first off, i bet you 99% of people haven't even heard of this IHL channel, meaning that even if new players, got better, and learned the game, and eventually became good enough to play against these players, they would never even get the chance to be matched against them, so they are left matching against other new players.

                The reason why matchmaking in HoN was looked upon as a joke, was because people at the top stopped playing it, so once you hit 1850+, it was impossible to find a decent match, because nobody over that threshold Qued. Now lets also not forget that the most people i ever saw online at once in HoN was 45k. Valve will easily have triple that on its first day. With a larger player pool, even the top 1% of players, will still have a large enough pool to have short enough Que times, and enough variation in people to have decent games without IHLs.

                Look at Starcraft, yes the grand masters league is the top 200 of players in the world, and masters league is the top 2% but people who play diamond, can get better through training and practice, and eventually get promoted to masters league and eventually grand masters. When you have small isolated invite only in house leagues, these players are removed from the pool, so the top 2% of players, aren't actually the top 2% of players, they are the top 4% because really, the top 2% dont even play matchmaking.

                Now imagine that instead of just 2% of people playing in some league, but the top say 15% play in house leagues and not in matchmaking on the ladder. Now with a player base of over a million users, you have 150,000 players who polute the ratings of other people and its a snowball effect form there.

                This is what leads to people having the attitude "Oh mmr means nothing, who cares, its easy to get to 1800" and people start doing stupid shit like "i'm going to tank my mmr, then see how fast i can get to 1800 solo Queing" which ruins the system and the game for many people. Now there isn't a system to stop people from doing this yet, but something along the lines of what starcraft does, (unpublished functionality, but data on spending quotient and division of players shows...) that a users highest achieved rank and lowest achieved rank are recorded. If a player goes on a losing streak, where their spending quotient, (average workers built, average game duration) suddenly spikes down as if the user is just leaving games to tank their mmr, then when the user starts winning games (through pubstomping ) they are immediately returned to their previous division.

                What i mean by this is if someone who plays in diamond, wants to stomp some newbs and decides to tank his mmr, he could matchmake and just immediately leave 50 games in a row until he gets demoted all the way to bronze. Then theoretically, if he started stomping newbs, its detected, flagged, and he is returned to diamond after as little as 3 wins.

                Stuff like this all prevents people from polluting the mmr pool, thus making skill valid, and makes the statistic actually important. The other option is dont show people their mmr, just show them what league/division they belong to. If they are silver/gold/diamond, they get matched against other people in their division until they start winning consistantly, if they are winning consistantly, then they play against people higher skilled then them. If they are consistantly winning against players ranked higher then them, then they get promoted.

                Comment


                • #38
                  +1 sterls

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    another thing i'd like to add is that there are so many different roles/play styles/strategies in dota, that what defines a "skilled player" can easily change dramatically. Think of a support player, someone who picks CM or Lich every game, is a great ward bitch, buys the courier, gets support items, leaves last hits for the carries, calls out runes for the gankers/carries, even defends runes until the carries can get there, always roams with an initiator. This player will more then likely rise quickly in matchmaking as a good support is so much more valuable then a good carry in solo Q pubs. So this player starts getting matched with higher skilled players, and then makes some friends and gets invited to a team as a support. Now they are playing in a pre-made team as a support, maybe for a few months and getting pretty good. Now imagine that pre-made's team, has someone with a real-life crysis, or just decides to take break from dota2. Its fully possible that this support player, might be the one to step up and try carrying. It might take him 30-50 games to find which carry he likes best and to have the rest of the team built around supporting him.

                    Just because he is trying something new, doesn't mean hes a bad player. Doesn't mean he's any less skilled then he was before. He's just trying something new out of pure interest or necessity. If Na'Vi's XBOCT suddenly decides he wants to support because hes sick of playing carries (not likely but possible) it doesn't make him any less skilled of a player, but the team will most likely have to lose a few rounds to get used to the change.

                    My point is, the player will still have good lane control, good map awareness, good team communication, good position, good timing, but with a metagame that shifts so drastically on a daily basis you can't determine who is a good player or bad player just by the most recent streak of games they have had. With IHLs, these players would still play the same teams, the same people when they are trying out new builds, new strategies that might be fail, when in matchmaking, ideally should be dropped into a lower bracket and replaced by a different team that is now winning those games against them until they rebuild their synergy and redevelop their strategies to accommodate the changes. With IHLs these teams / players aren't relegated, so they can't be replaced. And you are left with static and dry leagues that nobody cares about.
                    Last edited by sterls; 11-14-2011, 02:37 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CvP View Post
                      this.

                      We need auto join custom channels (associated with steam groups) for different communities so that they can find each other easily and chat. If they wanna play a game among themselves, either they party up in 5 and go match making or 10 people can go practice (and there should be option to enable/disable DotaTV in practice). That's it.

                      Don't divide the community, for god's sake.
                      yes please!

                      also +1 sterls.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        There's quite a few logical fallacies going on here. One would assume that a new player who has gone from being a scrub to being a top-tier player would have enough of a vested interest in the community that he takes the time to figure out where these private IHL games are taking place at, or similarly that the top-tier community would have a vested interest in inviting him to it. After all, these IHL games are designed for players to hone their skills, not circle jerk with buddies about how great they are (except KingRaven).

                        Now, I have literally zero StarCraft 2 experience, but I'm willing to bet here that in the team games you queue together as an entire team and are always placed against entire teams. I'm also willing to bet that at the very very top tier of StarCraft 2 players, there are a lot of inhouse, unranked games going on -- or games with opponents otherwise predetermined (ranked or no). Solo queuing at the top tier in a solo game is also vastly different than solo queuing in a team based game, to simplify things a little bit here the competitive edge needed in the latter comes from both from organization and skill, whereas the former it's just skill. Players in the top tier want competitive games, thus it stands to reason that they seek out the organization that is required for it.

                        Players being skimmed off the top also doesn't appreciably lower the matchmaking pool for the vast majority of players. In fact, they'll hardly ever notice it. It's not like they were playing together before, it's not like they'd be playing together tomorrow. If matchmaking queues become sparse after a certain rating (to, say, where 2% of the population resides), that's an expected outcome and one that the community itself can remedy via IHL games. I don't think it can be stressed enough that as the higher you go in terms of skill, the more organized you want your games. Even if you could determine that your team of 5 would be facing another team of 5, what's the difference between queuing that in the matchmaking pool, and forming a IHL game for it?

                        Anyway, just a few points I thought should be clarified. I'm by no means a top tier Dota player, but I do understand the mentality very well.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I'm really hoping that they will have multiple league ratings based on your team composition.

                          By far my biggest detractor to playing with some of my clan mates is that they are at a low-moderate pub level. I am literally scared to que with them because I am worried we will play against players at my skill level and they will feed constantly. If there are multiple ranking systems between who I play with, it's going to go a long way towards me not caring and queing for fun.

                          That is slightly off topic but it still looks at the main problem. People wanting to force skill level, and if valve does a really good job estimating and averaging skill levels(which is super hard with a game like dota, compared to something easier like sc2), then there shouldn't be a need for something like an IHL.

                          I think the in game chat channels will still create a meeting place for people, and obviously people will always have friends, but I think Valve would be better suited making matchmaking really fair and awesome more than letting other people volunteer for lots of leagues(unless of course valve wants randoms to basically solve these problems for them, which could create a segmented community).
                          www.youtube.com/purgegamers

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Problem with most IHL's is that you need to know some people to get into one.

                            I am not a person that makes a lot of friends online and I couldn't care less about being known. I also dislike most IHL's because of elitist players blaming everything on someone that isn't all that known. Yet I believe that I am good enough to play in most highskill leagues, but it's really hard to get in there.

                            Best example as of now is the Dotalicious Dota2 league. I don't know any of the vouchers, that's why my chances of getting in are extremely slim, while I am 99% certain I would be able to keep up with people's skilllevel.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I've always prided myself on doing things better by doing them differently.

                              I've seen and responded to your application. It's also up to you though to show us your skill. just "knowing" vouchers isn't the only way to get in and nor should it be. I don't know half of the Na'Vi players personally so by your logic that means they shouldn't get in either. Of course they are skilled enough because they have replays to show it. Statistics to back it up and so on.

                              My point is that if you have never scrimmed high skilled then you won't immediately get into a high skilled league either. It's like turning up for a job interview with no resume but applying for CEO. It's not going to happen.
                              In 1 month were opening it up for midd skilled also. These players will of course have a chance to move up while already vouched players might get moved down. This midd skilled version is basically the general public. I've stated this about 5 times in 5 different threads in 5 different places yet you fail to include that small but essential piece of information which makes me look down upon you quite greatly.

                              Ignorance is the downfall of everything. Buni knows this well.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bQttger View Post
                                Inhouse league are a huge part of Dota, mainly because Dota lack matchmaking, hostbots, moderators, rules, etc. They are a fix to a problem. Valve are fixing this problem and making inhouse leagues irrelevant. It is still in beta though and are far from perfect. You should focus on how to make the matchmaking perfect for your need, rather than focusing on how to make a fix for something that isn't even made yet.
                                Ofc you can suggest what you think is best, but wouldn't it be more ideal if everything just worked through dota2?
                                Not really.
                                How can you make the matchmaking perfect?
                                Can you stack professional players with high scores with professional players with lower score simply duo to noobish team?
                                How does the matchmaking work, on what basics do you select the players?
                                -Wins/Loses?
                                -Lasthits/Denies?
                                -Item build?
                                -How players manage on trilanes?
                                -How players manage on solo lanes?
                                -How players play versus trilane?
                                -How players choose different item build when playing against different enemies?
                                -How players act, manners etc.
                                -How players play their heroes from supporters to carry, harrasing enemies or not.
                                -Map awareness.
                                or simply some generated score that you receive from winning games and losing the score from losing games.

                                Your point on the in-house league is true but i don't think you understand that players are creating this leagues to play more quality games than playing matchmaking.

                                This are values that you can't convert in to binary numbers.

                                -Item build?
                                -How players manage on trilanes?
                                -How players manage on solo lanes?
                                -How players play versus trilane?
                                -How players choose different item build when playing against different enemies?
                                -How players act, manners etc.
                                -How players play their heroes from supporters to carry, harrasing enemies or not, warding or no warding.
                                -Do they buy boots as first items (because i have seen in matchmaking they do that).
                                -Map awareness.
                                -How do players skill their abilities?

                                The in-house leagues are created for this, playing professional games, where everybody knows his role, and what his supposed to do.
                                Place where players are selected.

                                When you make matchmaking like above said, than i may listen.

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