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Current forfeit/concede discussion thread

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  • Current forfeit/concede discussion thread

    Since people keep reporting this thread, I've added Chairraider's message as to why this thread is still open. ~Hefaistus

    Originally posted by Chairraider View Post
    I will let this thread stay open for now since forfeiting is a topic again right now due the PC Gamer article. Changed the title.

    Personally I heavily doubt there will be anything new this time and as soon as the thread starts to degenerate (insults/repetition) I am gonna close it.
    If you want to comment on this thread, I'll ask you to read this OP first and to be reasonable. Thank you for your attention.

    Valve, I want to talk about something really important, the satisfaction of your players. You guys are a company and the main purpose of any company is to make money, what makes you different from other companies is that the money you earn is directly proportional to the satisfaction and overall happiness of your players. A happy player is much more likely to buy something then a unhappy one.

    Unlike dota 1, dota 2 has a much more strict rule system, that tries to prevent people from spoiling the game of others. When a player joins for a match he is making a compromise that he will stay in the game until the end, and in return his team mates make the same compromise. This system prevents people from abandoning games, creating a big frustration for the rest of the team.

    But this system creates another frustration, the frustration of being stuck on a game that you don't want to be part of. Since you made a compromise on the start of the game, you will get punished if you break it, but lets not forget what was the main point of the compromise, to avoid the frustration of losing a teammate. Usually there is no way around this frustration, it is either you or your teammate to become frustrated, but there are lots of moments when every 5 members are frustrated and want to leave the match, but they can't just leave. When we are talking about the entire team this compromise loses all it's meaning, there is no reason to force them to keep playing if they all agree that they don't want to anymore.

    The current system, already allows them to leave without being punished, but it is currently too dangerous. It is too hidden, so most of the players either don't thrust it or don't know about it, and usually when all players want to stop playing they are already raging at each other, preventing any kind of cooperation. It only works when 5 people queue together, doing it in normal pubs is too risky.

    But there is a side effect to it, the other team may get frustrated about losing their opponents, but that changes a lot from player to player. The players who play dota only for the satisfaction of shredding their enemies to bits will be the most affected by a concede feature, they might lose lots of opportunities to do it, making them less satisfied with the game overall. There are also players (like me for example) that will never mind losing their opponents since they focus more on winning instead of kicking dead bodies. I also have to point out that the frustration of 30 minutes of being bashed is much heavier than the frustration generated from finishing the match prematurely.

    Now I'll ask you one question, which one you think is more worth, releasing 5 players of certain frustration but sometimes creating a lesser frustration for some members of the other team, or dooming 5 players to half an hour of frustrating waste of time, but preventing the lesser frustration of some of the enemies. To help you answer this question you can ask the players inside the game, show them the feature and ask them if they "Want", "Don't Want" or "Don't Care".

    Some might say that it doesn't matter how lost the match is, there is always a chance of winning. But the thing is that I'm not talking about winning or losing, I'm talking about respecting the will of 5 players that don't want to play anymore, winning or losing doesn't matter when you don't want to play, it loses it's meaning.

    I also heard some players say that a system like this can't exist since the game is a beta, this system might cause loss of information that could be used to improve the game. But lets get realistic for a moment, this game isn't beta anymore, there is money being generated here, the game can even be bought, and we are not just some lab rats for experiments, we are paying customers (at least some of us). Also, you already had plenty of time to gather information.

    The frustration generated from this games is what makes people rage and get muted, is what makes people ruin games on purpose, and finally, is what makes people leaving dota and never coming back. Instead of fixing the consequences of the lack of concede by punishing people in a variety of ways, why don't you fix the original cause of the problem and respect the will of your players.

    I'm here to suggest what has been suggested countless times:

    - A official way to leave the game without being punished, achieved by a unanimous vote (5/5) of the entire team. After the vote the game becomes safe to leave, and the other team will be declared winner. The voting is secret and is made by ticking a little box written "I want to leave the game", once all 5 boxes are ticked the voting will be complete. To prevent trolling a (4/5) system can be implemented, but it will sometimes make a player frustrated.

    - A way to allow a member of your team to leave the game without being punished, achieved by a unanimous vote (4/4) of the remaining players of the team. The game will become safe to leave just for the player. The voting is secret and is made by clicking on the name of the player and selecting the "I excuse this player from leaving" once 4 players declared his intention the voting is complete (it can also be a tick box so you can revert your decision).

    Just to explain the second suggestion. Most of us have real lives and real life stuff sometimes demands our attention. I think that if all players agree with the departure of the player there is no problem in letting him leave. It is much better to let him leave by this voting than forcing him to break his compromise and be punished, making the game safe to leave to the rest of the players creating massive frustration for everyone. Of course he will have to ask normally for the other player's permission and will have to accept when their team doesn't allow.

    I will also remember you guys that spamming or raging in order to make the voting go the way you want is a reportable offence and may lead to muting. Talking about it normally is not.

    Valve, we are tired to being treated like children, we want our will to be respected.
    Last edited by Hefaistus; 06-21-2013, 03:53 AM.

  • #2
    I'm highly against a surrender system of any kind, mostly because it encourages people to give up, early surrenders are no fun to play against, or to be on the team of someone constantly whining for surrender

    Seriously. Just no. Besides, there's a way to unanimously surrender, if a team all leaves the game, it ends in 30 seconds, ancient blows up, no harm no foul

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shaella View Post
      I'm highly against a surrender system of any kind, mostly because it encourages people to give up, early surrenders are no fun to play against, or to be on the team of someone constantly whining for surrender

      Seriously. Just no. Besides, there's a way to unanimously surrender, if a team all leaves the game, it ends in 30 seconds, ancient blows up, no harm no foul
      I'll ask you to read what I posted carefully, since you repeated some of the things I said I'll assume that you didn't do it. But I'll answer to you anyway.

      The option of leaving a game doesn't encourage people to give up, this option is present in virtually every single game. Leaving will be allowed, on a very specific situation, not encouraged. Also, people will still receive a loss for that game normally. Of course the number of abandons will increase, and this is already being addressed on the thread.

      Most of the decisions have side effects, you just have to evaluate which one is more worth.

      Since you mentioned unanimous surrender already existing in game, what is the point in hiding it from the players and force the players who want to do it to close and open the game hoping that their teammates will do the same? On my suggestion you don't need to affect your gameplay (by having to close and open the game) to try to do it, and if it fails you can keep playing normally and even win. This option only works on organized teams.

      Comment


      • #4
        No to surrender option please. In the PC gamer 17 page article Erik Johnson summed it up perfectly for me.

        Yet there are still unflinching orthodoxies in Dota’s design – the across-the-board lack of a surrender option, for example – that seem to contradict Valve’s assertion that it’s possible to please everybody with a sufficiently responsive approach. “It’s tricky,” Johnson tells me. “There is a balance... Dota’s a competitive game, and people are deeply invested in it, so losing is not fun, but the people who are winning are probably having a lot of fun. We don’t want to dampen both sides of that equation. One of the things we never want to lose is the amazing comeback, like the game we just played – both sides probably would have surrendered in that game at certain points. That would have been a robbery of fun.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Direclaw View Post
          The option of leaving a game doesn't encourage people to give up, this option is present in virtually every single game.
          YES
          IT
          DOES
          'Surrender at 20' is so prevalent within league of legends that its a fucking meme there, its a plague upon the game

          it robs the winners of enjoyment, and it robs the losing team a chance of coming back and possibly winning

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by havoc2 View Post
            No to surrender option please. In the PC gamer 17 page article Erik Johnson summed it up perfectly for me.
            Can you please post a link so I can read and analyze it? I read the entire 100+ pages long discussion of Concede and Surrender that happened before I start using this forum and I sincerely was not impressed, it is a really polemic discussion and needs to be addressed without bias arguments.

            Btw the "Robbery of fun" is being addressed on the thread.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Shaella View Post
              YES
              IT
              DOES
              'Surrender at 20' is so prevalent within league of legends that its a fucking meme there, its a plague upon the game

              it robs the winners of enjoyment, and it robs the losing team a chance of coming back and possibly winning
              its never gonna happen Valve said it themselves. Stop bringing up the stupid concede option its a dead horse stop beating it.

              Comment


              • #8
                The concede feature is a closed discussion in the common threads stickies.

                Please close this thread Mods, this suggestion is toxic and there is nothing new here that hasn't been argued already.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shaella View Post
                  YES
                  IT
                  DOES
                  'Surrender at 20' is so prevalent within league of legends that its a fucking meme there, its a plague upon the game

                  it robs the winners of enjoyment, and it robs the losing team a chance of coming back and possibly winning
                  Well it is a little hard to argument with a "IT DOES", but lets give it a try.

                  I never suggested a time limit or anything like it, It doesn't matter if they surrender at 60, 40, 20 or even before the game starts, it is the unanimous will of stop playing that matters. Also, some of my co-workers happen to be LoL players and according to them it is a really good feature, some of them even stated that they didn't liked playing dota because the lack of the system here.

                  It may rob the winners enjoyment (if he likes kicking dead bodies) but it will never rob the losing team a chance to come back, the losing team doesn't want this chance and he gave it away in order to stop playing, he gave this option away willingly.
                  Last edited by Direclaw; 06-19-2013, 01:05 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Slotz View Post
                    The concede feature is a closed discussion in the common threads stickies.

                    Please close this thread Mods, this suggestion is toxic and there is nothing new here that hasn't been argued already.
                    I know, and that is why I put a (concede thread, the mods can close it if they want) on the title. I'm not opening a discussion I'm showing the letter that I sent to valve to this forum, the letter was also sent via e-mail. If this suggestion is toxic or not, it is to valve to decide. I also think that it hasn't been discussed enough since people keep mentioning problems of a badly implemented concede system.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There should be a surrender option, or a "safe to leave" option without being punished. There are a lot of reasons, maybe something came up and you have to go, or maybe your house is on fire, but you can't stop the fire, because you're forced to play dota. Pause? That's a lol, no one leaves the pause on. Or maybe you don't wanna play that game anymore because you can't really play it or you got bored.


                      Valve can do this, a simply check box will help us all. Find a match with surrender button [checked].

                      Here you go, therefore we're all happy, those who wanna play a "surrender game" will matchmake with others like them, and those who won't, won't.
                      Last edited by bnyx; 06-19-2013, 01:08 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by havoc2 View Post
                        its never gonna happen Valve said it themselves. Stop bringing up the stupid concede option its a dead horse stop beating it.
                        If you would be so kind to put a link to where did Valve said it themselves. This is indeed an old discussion on this forum, but it is dead only because of censorship. I only want what is best for the game.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Direclaw View Post
                          If you would be so kind to put a link to where did Valve said it themselves. This is indeed an old discussion on this forum, but it is dead only because of censorship. I only want what is best for the game.
                          If you want whats best for the game you'd be against a surrender function

                          Its literally toxic.

                          Last edited by Shaella; 06-19-2013, 01:13 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joey Queue
                            I think Surrender is a good option. I think for DOTA it is like competition. Its like Toyota makes a hybrid car. Everyone thinks tree huggers are stupid, but the hybrid car catches on with Toyota and they're making a lot of money off it. Now almost every car maker has a hybrid car model, because they don't want to be seen as the one company in the whole world that doesn't want to do what's right for the environment.

                            I know it's a bad comparison, but DOTA is competing with LOL. In business it's a bad idea to just assume the other guy is stupid all the time.

                            I don't think the idea is toxic. Games where I get killed and farmed by pudge in my own fountain for 5+ minutes are the games I hate the most.

                            _JoeyQ
                            sometimes the other guy is stupid though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bnyx View Post
                              There should be a surrender option, or a "safe to leave" option without being punished. There are a lot of reasons, maybe something came up and you have to go, or maybe your house is on fire, but you can't stop the fire, because you're forced to play dota. Pause? That's a lol, no one leaves the pause on. Or maybe you don't wanna play that game anymore because you can't really play it or you got bored.

                              Extreme things like house on fire are not really a excuse for surrender system, because the game doesn't punishes you for leaving once, but people have to remember that this is just a game, and any real life matter is more important than it. That is why I suggested the permission to leave system, so that people can explain the situation to the team which will evaluate if they can afford the loss of a member or not.

                              But I don't agree with giving the player permission just because they got bored.


                              Valve can do this, a simply check box will help us all. Find a match with surrender button [checked].

                              Here you go, therefore we're all happy, those who wanna play a "surrender game" will matchmake with others like them, and those who won't, won't.

                              The reason I didn't suggested a "surrender mode" is because splitting the community is a really big side effect, and I don't think that ANY people (not a single person) will be hurt by this system, even the most crazy player that only play this game for the one sided matches will be rewarded with this system when the system allow him to do as he pleases. No one likes to be at the wrong side of a one sided match, and only some like to be on the right side (I know I don't).
                              relpies in bold

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