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Ability type; what BKB blocks shouldn't be a secret

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  • Ability type; what BKB blocks shouldn't be a secret

    It is troublesome that you have to look up on wiki to see what stuns and such go through BKB and which don't.
    An ability may be magical damage, and the damage is blocked, but it could be a "physical"(universal?) stun which isn't blocked by the magic immunity. At least, this is my understanding of the mechanic behind the reasoning of things going through BKB.
    Another example is how Slardar's crush is physical DAMAGE, but a magical ABILITY. The damage isn't blocked by BKB's MAGICAL immunity, but the MAGICAL stun is.

    I think the easiest and clearest solution is to have abilities list their ability type just under their damage type, as they often aren't one-in-the-same.
    This way I can tell my friends to reference the ability type on the tooltip to know whether the disables go through BKB or not, instead of telling them to look at dota2wiki for hundreds of abilities.

    Many tooltips also don't note that they ministun, like Crystal Maiden's Frostbite, if I recall correctly.
    Last edited by innociv; 09-16-2012, 09:28 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by innociv View Post
    Another example is how Slardar's crush is physical DAMAGE by a magical ABILITY. The damage isn't blocked by BKB's MAGICAL immunity, but the MAGICAL stun is.
    Well you explained it yourself ... BKB grants magic immunity. Damage is Physical so it doesn't get blocked, the stun is magic = gets blocked.
    In general there are only a few "normal skills" that stuns through BKB. Sladar Stun and Void Time Lock. Ultimates is an other story. Most singletarget Ultis that control goes through BKB. And only a few AOE ultis disable BKB units like Black Hole, Chrono and Warlocks Ulti.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how much should the Tooltip tell. Its part of Dota experience to discover things that you didn't know before, and this things you will remember.

    Comment


    • #3
      It isn't that hard, when under bkb, no damage from magic spell, ultimates do only the side effect (disable/position change/etc..) but no damage.
      exeption to that

      Ultimate
      doom works 100% (if it wasn't, it would not be "doom")
      ravage does nothing (that's just a lot of empale, which are lion and nyx basic spell, so normal)
      Naga's song does nothing (This one, i guess you couldn't invent it, indeed)
      Omnislash (physical damage)

      basic spell (I will not list all physical damage spell in that part, cause it's too obvious)
      Net of naga (This one, indeed if you didn't played war3, you couldn't invent it)
      Berserker call (This one, you couldn't invent it, indeed)
      Diabolic edict (mixed damage, and we couldn't call it diabolic if it wasn't hitting magic immune)
      Every aoe spell that you "lay down in a zone" (midnight pulse/acid spray/march of machine)
      meat hook (personnaly, i would find it very weird if it wasn't hooking)

      And in bulk, every spell are magical, but their damage can be physical

      I mb missed one or two spell, but in short you have to remember like 5 spell that go through bkb or which don't, and other than that refer to how they are casted.

      Comment


      • #4
        His point is that it shouldn't be a guessing game as to whether a particular spell works on magic immune / ethereal / linken's heroes. Burrowstrike / Fissure / Impale / Spike trigger Linken's even when not targeted, Nature's Wrath is blocked by Linken's, and BKB blocks the echoes from Echo Slam but not the initial damage. These aren't really obvious interactions.

        Since the information is available online on the Wiki / official Dota website, it's intended for players to know these things. But it should definitely be available ingame. I think there's a difference between making a game hard rather than challenging, and hiding information on the official site is the first one. Let me explain the difference:

        A challenging hero is one like Meepo or Invoker. Invoker can be played simply using just Cold Snap / Spirits. But higher skilled players are able to do much more with him using combos and Aghanims. Meepo's difficult because he requires a lot of micro, positioning and thinking. These heroes are difficult in a good way, in that the difficulty is based on skill / reflexes / thinking / practice.

        On the other hand, making things hard is "bad" difficulty. There aren't really any heroes like this in Dota, so I'll use the example of Diablo 3. When released, the highest difficulty setting simply increases the damage and health of the enemies so that you get 1- or 2-shot by most of them. It wasn't a question of requiring new strategies to beat enemies or skill, it was simply "harr harr you die if we touch you". Players simply death-zerged and exploited their way through the game, dying and respawning to throw themselves at the enemies repeatedly.

        Hiding in-game knowledge is an example of making a game "hard" rather than "challenging". It doesn't make the hero require more skill to play; it just requires players to go onto a non-obvious webpage and read what their skill actually does. It requires tedious memorization rather than reflexes or practice or skill, and as such I don't think it should be in the game. Better players are already separated from worse players by their builds, strategies, picks, and positioning. You're not a better player if you've looked up "earthshaker" on Playdota, and I think people who argue that Dota will somehow become a game "for noobs" are utterly wrong.

        On the other hand, take a look at the Wiki page for Kunkka. Check out the BKB / Linken's icons on each skill, and the BKB effect description on his ult. Putting this information ingame wouldn't turn noobs into pros and wouldn't give players information that they're not supposed to know, but it would reduce a lot of the pointless screwups in low-tier games, increase the quality of play slightly and overall make for a better and more professional game experience.
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        Comment


        • #5
          t-up

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm going to turn this into another one of those 'let's compare this with how HoN does it' threads.

            Compare Slardar's tooltip (bold) with Pestilence (HoN's Slardar equivalent, italics).

            Slithereen Crush
            Slams the ground, stunning and damaging nearby enemy land units. After the stun, the affected units are slowed.
            MANA COST: 80 / 95 / 105 / 115
            COOLDOWN: 8.0


            ABILITY: NO TARGET
            DAMAGE: PHYSICAL
            DAMAGE: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200
            RADIUS: 350
            SLOW: 20%
            SLOW DURATION: 2
            STUN DURATION: 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5


            Impale
            Action: Self Position
            Type: Enemy Units
            Pestilence calls on the aid of his underground insect brethren to strike nearby enemies from underground. Enemies are impaled, causing them to be stunned and take damage, followed by reduced Movement Speed.

            Type: Magic
            Radius: 350
            Cast Time: 0.5 Seconds
            Cooldown: 8 Seconds
            Mana Cost: 85 / 95 / 105 / 115
            Required Levels: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

            Activation:
            Stuns targets in radius for 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 second(s), damages them for 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 Physical Damage, and slows their Movement Speed by 20% for an additional two seconds after the stun.


            Pay attention to underlined parts. Where HoN's tooltip mentions that the ability itself is magic, DOTA (2) does no such thing. HoN's tooltip also includes the cast time. Both mentions that the ability does physical damage, implying it goes through BKB/Shrunken Head, Omniknight's Repel/Jereziah's Protective Charm, etc etc. Note also how DOTA 2 says (which, in my opinion, is not immediately intuitive) that the ability has 'no target', HoN says the action is performed at 'self position'.

            Now let's look at Crystal Maiden and HoN's equivalent (Glacius):

            Frostbite
            Encases an enemy unit in ice, prohibiting movement and attack, while dealing damage per second.
            MANA COST: 115 / 125 / 140 / 150
            COOLDOWN: 10.0


            ABILITY: TARGET UNIT
            AFFECTS: ENEMY HEROES
            DAMAGE: MAGICAL
            DAMAGE: 70 / 70 / 70 / 70
            DURATION: 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3


            Ice Imprisonment
            Action: Target Entity
            Type: Enemy And Willing Ally Units
            Glacius encases a target enemy unit in ice. The target unit is frozen solid, rendering it unable to move or attack. The target unit takes damage over time while frozen. If an ally is frozen, they are protected by ice.

            Type: Magic
            Range: 500
            Cast Time: 0.54 Seconds
            Cooldown: 10 Seconds
            Mana Cost: 120 / 130 / 140 / 150
            Required Levels: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

            Activation:
            Performs a mini-stun on target then applies Ice Imprisonment for 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds for enemy heroes, or 10 seconds for creeps.

            When casted on an ally, applies Frosted for 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds.

            Frozen Effect(s)
            Immobilized
            Disarmed
            Revealed
            70 Magic Damage per second
            Frosted Effect(s)
            Immobilized
            Disarmed
            Revealed
            20 / 30 / 40 / 50% damage reduction


            Ignoring the fact that you're allowed to cast this on allies in HoN, HoN's tooltips mention:

            - Cast range;
            - Cast time;
            - The fact that the skill performs a mini-stun;
            - The fact that the target is revealed (from invisibility).

            I'm sorry, HoN tooltips are just better in so many respects.

            Comment


            • #7
              oh, thats why my friend say HoN is for new player....
              they explain everything.
              go back to hon baby

              im from old dota, so this tooltips just familiar :3
              i think i like learning from experience, more than learning from reading :x
              Remove Signature NOW
              Watching useless red text about mute system hurt my eyes and my brain

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by triz_b View Post
                oh, thats why my friend say HoN is for new player....
                they explain everything.
                go back to hon baby

                im from old dota, so this tooltips just familiar :3
                i think i like learning from experience, more than learning from reading :x
                What? I've played DotA for years, I hardly ever play HoN, and I don't need any of these tooltips. That doesn't mean I can't recognise that someone else did it better, and that DOTA 2 can improve their current tooltips.

                DOTA 2 tooltips are much more noob-friendly than DotA. In DotA they don't usually mention anything about the skill type (magical/physical/universal). Why don't you 'go back to DotA baby', since DOTA 2's far more detailed tooltips (although, still not as detailed as HoN) mean that it's 'for new player....'?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by infiniteX3logy View Post
                  What? I've played DotA for years, I hardly ever play HoN, and I don't need any of these tooltips. That doesn't mean I can't recognise that someone else did it better, and that DOTA 2 can improve their current tooltips.

                  DOTA 2 tooltips are much more noob-friendly than DotA. In DotA they don't usually mention anything about the skill type (magical/physical/universal). Why don't you 'go back to DotA baby', since DOTA 2's far more detailed tooltips (although, still not as detailed as HoN) mean that it's 'for new player....'?
                  Yeah, this.
                  I didn't play HoN, but those look nice.
                  That's basically what I said. List the ability type, and damage type.

                  There are numerous areas where Dota2 tooltips need improvement, and one of the biggest is to have an indication of whether things will be blocked by magic immunity or not.

                  The way it lists things like "immobilized, disarmed, revealed" is really good. Like magic the gathering cards. That's nice and clear, and simple.

                  I already know by memory all that are blocked or not blocked, but that's because I've read the wiki for ever hero and played hundreds of games. But still, after knowing all this information, that doesn't make me a pro. That information shouldn't be so hard to come by, it should be in tooltips.

                  If your only hope to win, when you're such a good player, is for someone to not understand an ability as well as you do, then--- I don't even know what to say.
                  Last edited by innociv; 09-16-2012, 10:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's a learning curve in Dota. this is part of it. Leave it in. Go to www.playdota.com if you have any questions

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No, this is not part of it cause you can read how it works all over the internet.
                      Just make the information available ingame.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't know whether we want to go down this road or not, but since we are discussing a comparison betweet DOTA2 and HoN, the latter has the concept of 'Superior Magic' which pretty much simplifies things a lot. Superior magic goes through magic imunity. Simple as that.

                        You might take beastmaster's tooltip:

                        A deafening roar that deals damage and stuns the target enemy unit, while opening a path between Beastmaster and his prey. Nearby enemies also take damage and have their movement speed and attack rate reduced. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter.

                        And change it to:

                        A deafening roar that deals damage and applies superior stun to the target enemy unit, while opening a path between Beastmaster and his prey. Nearby enemies also take damage and have their movement speed and attack rate reduced. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter.

                        Or simply state it in the stats:
                        STUN DURATION: 3 / 3.5 / 4
                        TYPE: SUPERIOR
                        One world is much like another

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the biggest issue is that DOTA 2 doesn't recognise that skills themselves need to be sorted into one of the current types (http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Damage_types). Right now, only the damage that skills do are sorted into the types, which is why many people still don't know what skills take effect on magic immune units but do no damage. Bringing up beastmaster's ultimate:

                          Avalanche
                          Action: Target Entity
                          Type: Organic Enemy Units
                          Tundra can control the mountain itself when in a fit of rage, summoning a piece of a glacier to smash his target and toss any nearby enemy heroes away.

                          Type: SuperiorMagic
                          Range: 600
                          Cast Time: 1.19 Seconds
                          Cooldown: 80 / 75 / 70 Seconds
                          Mana Cost: 150 / 175 / 200
                          Required Levels: 6 / 11 / 16

                          Activation:
                          Deals 200 / 250 / 300 Magic Damage and stuns target for 3 / 3.5 / 4 seconds.

                          Pushes anyone between Tundra and his target 240 units away, deals 100 / 200 / 300 Magic Damage, and applies Avalanche to them for 2 / 3 / 4 seconds.

                          Avalanche Effect(s)
                          Movespeed Slow: 0.50
                          Attack Speed: -50


                          The skill itself is 'Superior Magic', while dealing 'Magic' damage. Again, I emphasise that DOTA 2 doesn't categorise skills, only the damage from skills, into one of the 'damage types'.

                          The concept of 'Superior Magic' exists in DOTA (2). HoN's Superior Magic Damage is exactly the same as Universal Damage, and the only HoN hero which has a DOTA (2) equivalent which does Superior Magic/Universal damage in both games is Behemoth/Earthshaker's Ultimate, and only the initial shock:

                          Shockwave
                          Action: Self Position
                          Type: Enemy Units
                          The Behemoth slams the ground with all his might, causing a devastating shockwave around him. The shockwave ricochets off nearby enemies, effectively increasing the damage dealt based on the number of nearby enemy units.

                          Type: Magic
                          Cast Time: 0.7 Seconds
                          Cooldown: 150 / 130 / 110 Seconds
                          Mana Cost: 145 / 205 / 265
                          Required Levels: 6 / 11 / 16

                          Activation:
                          Deals 200 / 275 / 350 Superior Magic Damage to enemy units in a 500 radius around self. Deals 35 / 45 / 55 additional Magic Damage for each additional enemy unit in range.


                          Echo Slam [Hotkeys] R C

                          Ability Affects Damage
                          No Target Enemies Magical
                          Shockwaves travel through the ground, damaging enemy units. Each enemy hit causes an echo to damage nearby units.
                          Radius: 500
                          Damage: 200/265/340
                          Echo Damage: 40/55/70
                          150/130/110 145/205/265
                          [BKB] Initial damage is not blocked.
                          [Sceptre] Causes each initial hero hit to echo twice.
                          Tectonic plates crack, mountains fold, and foes are crushed by the Echo Slam.
                          Notes:
                          The initial damage will go through magic immunity, the additional damage will not.
                          The initial damage is dealt in an radius of 500 around Earthshaker.
                          Each unit within 550 radius of the initial blast will produce an echo wave, dealing damage to units around it (including itself).
                          Creeps killed by Echo Slam's initial damage will still give off echo wave damage.


                          Again showing how incredibly lacking DOTA 2 tooltips are, while HoN's tooltip says that the initial shock is Superior Magic, DOTA 2 tooltips say that the whole skill is magic. The DOTA 2 description here is not taken from a tooltip, but the Dota 2 Wiki (http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Earthshaker), which only mentions that 'The initial damage will go through magic immunity, the additional damage will not.' What does 'The initial damage will go through magic immunity' mean? All it tells us is that some damage is done, but whether the damage is physical (reduced by armour), universal (reduced by magic resistance), or composite (reduced by both) will never be known unless tests are done.

                          For all those who are interested, DOTA 2's damage types and their equivalent HoN terms are listed here.

                          DOTA 2 Physical Damage - HoN Physical Damage
                          DOTA 2 Magical Damage - HoN Magic Damage
                          DOTA 2 Pure Damage - HoN True Damage
                          DOTA 2 Universal Damage - HoN Superior Magic Damage
                          DOTA 2 Composite Damage - HoN (Superior Magic + Superior Physical Damage) or (Mixed Damage). The previous term (Superior Magic + Superior Physical Damage) is used in all in-game tooltips, e.g. in Tundra's piercing shards (Beastmaster's Wild Axes). However, this term is a bit misleading, as there is no such thing as 'Superior Physical' Damage by itself; such a damage type would only be reduced by armour and damage block (stout shield/wooden shield, poor man's shield/iron shield, vanguard/helm of the black legion), is not reduced by magic resistance/magic armour, but ignore and go through the status 'ethereal/void talisman' and Omniknight/Jereziah's Guardian Angel/Sol's Blessing. There is no such skill in DOTA (2) or HoN that does this.
                          Last edited by infiniteX3logy; 09-17-2012, 07:48 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ^
                            I like it, was wondering why is made so HARD for newbies. Even veterans like me appreciate the reminders from time to time.
                            If you don't have an intelligent reply for me, don't bother I will shred your non sense to pieces.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I do think HoN has TOO much text in many tool tips. I got lost in them when I tried it.
                              But Dota2 has too little, lacking certain details. Whether BKB blocks it or not is VERY important to know without having to try it and see or check a wiki.
                              Like it doesn't note the rate at which Cold Feet ticks, it's not once per second.

                              Comment

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