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  • RocketFingers
    replied
    Originally posted by Agente L View Post
    Which spots? Easy? Medium? In how much time? Can you jungle two or more spots per minute early?
    Bear has 1300 hp and 3 armor. There is no way he can survive that much punishment non stop, without regen items.
    LD jungle is pure pratice, if you random you can afford a headress + stout shield/queling blade and you're ok to rush your midas.
    if you pick you might get stout + qb and tangoes or branchess, and maybe you'll have to buy 1 tango or another to keep jungling, cause you'll have to tank a little if your bear's skill is not close to get off cd and your bear is dying, the main pont of LD is to not let the bear die and rush 1 skill with sinergy first of all.

    Asap game starts summon your bear, you can't go to heavy camps rightaway, you can stick in small-medium as most of junglers at lvl 1. (i think enchantress/enigma/chen/doom-just to eat the creep) are the only ones who can start form hard camps.

    Then you just go from one place to another slaying things i can midas like this in 7~8 minutes without going back to base once, after midas things just snowball...

    If you go to the side lanes you manage a midas in 5~6 minutes if you last hit like a boss, so pretty awesome.
    Last edited by RocketFingers; 01-21-2013, 01:18 PM.

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  • faustlim
    replied
    lone druid jungling should stick at 1.
    he cant do it as fast as many other junglers. not to mention that the bear isnt very tanky at early levels
    the rest i will look at later

    Leave a comment:


  • Agente L
    replied
    Originally posted by zmbrip View Post
    I'm able to take out 5-6 spots before the bear is dead. And the cooldown resets way before the bear is dead. Thats my personal experience. If people cant, they simply cant.
    Which spots? Easy? Medium? In how much time? Can you jungle two or more spots per minute early?

    Bear has 1300 hp and 3 armor. There is no way he can survive that much punishment non stop, without regen items.

    Leave a comment:


  • zmbrip
    replied
    Originally posted by Agente L View Post
    No, LD is a bad jungler. He can do maybe 2 or 3 jungle spots before spirit bear dying, and then you have to wait a long ass cooldown to go back to it. He has no self heal like BS or naix, no unit summon like prophet or charm like chen and enchantress.
    I'm able to take out 5-6 spots before the bear is dead. And the cooldown resets way before the bear is dead. Thats my personal experience. If people cant, they simply cant.

    Originally posted by RocketFingers View Post
    Invoker
    I like the Disable role and i think its more important than Escape role, so they should swap Escape for Disable, but carry should definitely stays.
    I myself commonly build exort build with damage/IAS items. Desolator invoker + coldsnap + spirits own like a boss (you hit like a ursa with 10 stacks of overpower!!)
    I guess youre right. Disabler instead of escape. Makes sense.


    And one last thing about Sniper, ok I give up. Lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • RocketFingers
    replied
    Originally posted by zmbrip View Post
    Additional thoughts:
    Lone Druid: Should jungle or not, thats not the point. The point is he can do it like a boss.
    Necrolyte: If you skip your 3rd, you will have a great heal and a harrassment spell both in 1. And the 2nd is a total annoying spell which requires no mana or action to use. Thats why I think he can be a lane support.
    Sniper: A 10 second cooldown spell with 655 damage is no joke. I still think It needs more discussion.

    Idea on Invoker:
    Now: 1 star carry, 1 star nuker, 1 star inititator and 1 star escape
    New Suggestion: Carry from 1 to 0, Disabler from 0 to 1, Initiator stays
    Thats more fair I suppose.
    Lone Druid
    Agreed.

    Necrolyte
    I agree with you, unfortunatelly his heal takes too much mana early on, but i think ANY hero who is able to make a carry stay longer in the lane by healing or free-harassing enemies shall have the Lane Support tag. So necro fits this hole.

    Sniper
    Make a comparison with all other heroes with the NUKE tag. They all have immediate, "low" cd (sometimes the cd is a little big, but the damage output is awesome), good damage output spells.
    Also his spell is channeling and affects one target. So keep that im mind when you judge a nuking spell.
    Tidehunter for example, if he blinks near to 5 enemies he can have a damage output equal to (450*5) ultimate + (225*5) anchor smash = 3375 damage output in one second and he is NOT tagged as nuker.

    Invoker
    I like the Disable role and i think its more important than Escape role, so they should swap Escape for Disable, but carry should definitely stays.
    I myself commonly build exort build with damage/IAS items. Desolator invoker + coldsnap + spirits own like a boss (you hit like a ursa with 10 stacks of overpower!!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Equal
    replied
    I dont think this needs to be changed.
    Its already hard to play little bit alternative without getting shitstormed.
    It should better be removed, alot heros can do alot roles and are not just either A or B.
    but ppl say because the A part of a her is higher then the B part, the b part suddenly doesnt exsist.

    Like Necro, he has carry in his roles. So i pick him first and say i carry and stuff and ppl STILL do not want me to carry, they are to focused that i also can support so i should.

    Remove the rating all together!

    Leave a comment:


  • Agente L
    replied
    No, LD is a bad jungler. He can do maybe 2 or 3 jungle spots before spirit bear dying, and then you have to wait a long ass cooldown to go back to it. He has no self heal like BS or naix, no unit summon like prophet or charm like chen and enchantress.

    Necro aura is horrible for supporting cause it pushes the lane and can steal last hits from your carry.

    Yeah, but sniper should only use that skill for harassment/initiation and to catch running heroes. His auto attack dps is tends to be much higher, due to how fast his attack is, and due to headshot procs. Spamming assassinate isn't very good. He also lacks mana to do it. He also has a cast time, making the true cooldown somewhere closer to 12 seconds.
    Last edited by Agente L; 01-18-2013, 08:14 AM.

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  • zmbrip
    replied
    Originally posted by moupon View Post
    Maybe rank him as pusher? Stun + spirits can give your creeps an advantage over the enemy team's.
    If a hero is a pusher,
    a. He has a spammable high damage AoE spell. (Powershot, Carrion Swarm)
    b. Has a tower-damaging spell. (Diabloic Edict, Fire Arrows)
    c. Global teleportation or a spell to summon allies. (Teleport, Dark Rift, Recall)
    d. A spell that allows you to summon companions, additional units in other words. (Spirit Bear, Mirror Image, Enchant, Serpent Wards)

    So no, wisp isnt a pusher. Maybe with his ult, but as its limimted with time, no.
    Last edited by zmbrip; 01-18-2013, 09:19 AM.

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  • moupon
    replied
    Really agree on Wisp as a disabler. His stun is extremely helpful, maybe not in locking down people but in allow people to escape or generally being an annoyance. Maybe rank him as pusher? Stun + spirits can give your creeps an advantage over the enemy team's.

    Leave a comment:


  • zmbrip
    replied
    Originally posted by tortoos View Post
    I have a couple of things. Jakiro is a good lane support with dual breath. That skill costs practically no mana and is good harassment. I don't think his rating of lane support should be hit. Neither should Lich. Lich is a fantastic lane support with free denies and a free harassment spell. He definitely deserves the rating he has.
    In that point of view, youre probably right about Lich, but cant say the same to Jakiro. But agreed on at least 1 star of it should stay.


    Originally posted by tortoos View Post
    Another change i'd say is make phantom lancer from a 2 star carry to a 3 star carry, as it's common knowledge that a well built pl can utterly decimate teams.
    Thanks for that, added to the list.


    Originally posted by Agente L View Post
    Bloodseeker isn't a nuker. He has no immediate, high damaging skill.

    Windrunner disable may be strong, but it's almost completely situational. Maintain at 1.

    Lina has close to no carry potential. Semi carry at best. Her passive is a average scaling skill, nothing else.

    Keep lich at level 3 lane support. He's nothing short than amazing. The only thing he lacks is a heal, but his skilslet more than make up for it. It denies xp and gold and do great harassing.
    Agreed on all of those and updated the main post.


    Originally posted by Shovelrats View Post
    Sarcasm and you.

    Anyway I agree on introducing ganker role, probly as a major role too.
    Just kidding dude. Thats a great thing you make me remember the ganker role suggestion. Thats an important thing to discuss.

    Originally posted by tortoos View Post
    Silence is most definitely a disable. It's not a stun, but it is a disable. 5 seconds of silence globally is definitely an annoying disable, and can completely reverse initiation or turn the tide of a fight by just preventing opponents from casting any spells. Silence prevents a target from casting abilities, and is therefore a form of crowd control.
    Thanks for making the explanation that I could not.

    Additional thoughts:
    Lone Druid: Should jungle or not, thats not the point. The point is he can do it like a boss.
    Necrolyte: If you skip your 3rd, you will have a great heal and a harrassment spell both in 1. And the 2nd is a total annoying spell which requires no mana or action to use. Thats why I think he can be a lane support.
    Sniper: A 10 second cooldown spell with 655 damage is no joke. I still think It needs more discussion.

    Idea on Invoker:
    Now: 1 star carry, 1 star nuker, 1 star inititator and 1 star escape
    New Suggestion: Carry from 1 to 0, Disabler from 0 to 1, Initiator stays
    Thats more fair I suppose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shovelrats
    replied
    Originally posted by zmbrip View Post
    Rotten. Them jokes make me die a little inside.
    Pusher and Ganker are in the same sub-group of roles that are used for some specific tactical playstyles. Well, if Pusher is considered as a role, Gankers has to be there aswell.
    Sarcasm and you.

    Anyway I agree on introducing ganker role, probly as a major role too.

    Leave a comment:


  • tortoos
    replied
    I have a couple of things. Jakiro is a good lane support with dual breath. That skill costs practically no mana and is good harassment. I don't think his rating of lane support should be hit. Neither should Lich. Lich is a fantastic lane support with free denies and a free harassment spell. He definitely deserves the rating he has. Another change i'd say is make phantom lancer from a 2 star carry to a 3 star carry, as it's common knowledge that a well built pl can utterly decimate teams. Invoker should definitely have initiation at at least one, because of tornado and emp. Lone Druid is a good jungler. I'd say he's a jungling potential of 2 if enigma is 3. Huskar is definitely at 2 durability. 3 is reserved for the truly durable heroes such as centaur and dragon knight, medusa really late game. 2 implies tanky, where 3 should be just a veritable juggernaut of durability. Sniper MIGHT be a pusher, keyword MAYBE. He is definitely not a nuker though. Nukers rely on their spells to do damage. Having one high damage spell does not make you a nuker. Sniper is an auto-attacker with a singular high damage spell. I largely agree with Agente L, with a few differences. Silence is most definitely a disable. It's not a stun, but it is a disable. 5 seconds of silence globally is definitely an annoying disable, and can completely reverse initiation or turn the tide of a fight by just preventing opponents from casting any spells. Silence prevents a target from casting abilities, and is therefore a form of crowd control. Lina has no carry potential, and necrolyte is bad at pretty much everything. You could make a case for necrolyte being a minor pusher however I suppose with some lane support. He's one of the harder heroes to rate because he doesn't do anything particularly well, he just does a few things adequately.
    Last edited by tortoos; 01-16-2013, 07:46 PM.

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  • RocketFingers
    replied
    Originally posted by zmbrip View Post
    Thank you guys for reading and sharing your precious thoughts. Most of my thanks to RocketFingers.
    ; )

    I've read your point of view and I understand it. But you have to forget item-builds when tagging the heroes.
    If you count item-build almost every hero can carry with the right items, so, thats why Lina can't be a carry for example, you have to imaginate her lvl 25 without any items. Her damage output isnt that much late game, its different from Necro for example wich scales late game. This is also why sniper can't be considered a nuker, without mana regen build he cant spam his ultimate and quickly kill someone, he does a lot more damage by just auto-attacking while his ult is at cd.

    I agree and i want to bump some of Agente L statements.



    Originally posted by Agente L View Post
    Windrunner disable may be strong, but it's almost completely situational. Maintain at 1.
    Silence isn't a disable per se. It's not a form of crowd control. Therefore, silence =/= disabler
    Lina has close to no carry potential. Semi carry at best. Her passive is a average scaling skill, nothing else.
    Necrolyte is a bad lane support. Too much last hits dependent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Agente L
    replied
    Enchantress is the hero with lowest str gain in game. She only has one durable point due to her skills. Also, she's a 2 jungler at best. Chen jungles better than her, even with less creeps.

    Invoker is a great initiator. Tornado + emp destroy positioning.

    Bloodseeker isn't a nuker. He has no immediate, high damaging skill.

    Windrunner disable may be strong, but it's almost completely situational. Maintain at 1.

    Silence isn't a disable per se. It's not a form of crowd control. Therefore, silence =/= disabler

    Jak is a great lane support. Tanky, a passive which deals damage, and a low mana stun. Also, he isn't item dependant.

    Sniper lacks immediate damaging spells to be a nuker.

    Nuke, by definition, is a strong, immediate spell. There are too many heroes there with delayed skills which you considered "nukers".

    Lone druid should never jungle. Only if he's being completely outlaned, which shouldn't happen anyway. For me, it should go down to 0

    Lina has close to no carry potential. Semi carry at best. Her passive is a average scaling skill, nothing else.

    Keep lich at level 3 lane support. He's nothing short than amazing. The only thing he lacks is a heal, but his skilslet more than make up for it. It denies xp and gold and do great harassing.

    Necrolyte is a bad lane support. Too much last hits dependent.

    Leave a comment:


  • zmbrip
    replied
    Thank you guys for reading and sharing your precious thoughts. Most of my thanks to RocketFingers.

    Echantress: Jungler from 1 to 3, Durable from 1 to 2
    She is one of my favorite heroes. I have just thought about the "easy jungling" part when writing this I guess. But yeah, youre right BZAD, she sacrifices exp and gold. 2 stars would be enough, eh? On the carry thing, Lina has a way greater damage output. Only having a nice auto-attack damage doesnt mean she can carry. On durability, she has the lowest strength gain in the whole game, 1. But she is nearly immortal since 15-20th min.

    Naga Siren: Escape from 1 to 0, Initiator from 0 to 2
    I'm all okay with the ulti as an escape mechanism. But it appears to be, a hero can have 4 roles at most. So the usage of ult is way more useful and noticable as an initiate spell.

    Sniper: Pusher from 0 to 1, Nuker from 0 to 1
    Well, I used to get a soul ring or malevolence to spam his ult, which deal 655 damage for each 10 seconds at its highest level.

    Meepo: Nuker from 0 to 1, Initiator from 1 to 0, Pusher from 0 to 1
    Never thought about the dagger meepo before youve said. I guess

    Huskar: Durable from 1 to 3
    3 can be a bit much yeah. But an ordinary farmed Huskar can have 2 stars on it.

    Medusa: Disabler from 0 to 1, Durable from 0 to 3
    Disabler, no. Typo, my bad. It supposed to be initiator, as a mass buff removal, slow and anti-illus.

    Drow Ranger: Disabler from 0 to 1 ?
    Silencer: Disabler from 0 to 1 ?
    They both have the question mark following. Silence can be counted as a disable mechansm as it prevents all skill-shots.

    Invoker: Initiator from 1 to 0, Disabler from 0 to 2, Nuker from 1 to 2
    Same issue with naga. Hes way more a disabler, than an initiator.

    Lina: Carry from 0 to 1
    As a 1 star carry, Sven is nearly unmatched in 25 level full item 1v1 in whole heroes. If heroes like Necrolyte and Queen of Pain has 1 star on carry, why cant Lina? Hes pretty viable as a utility/semi-carry with power treads, orchid and more else, even in competitive. (Tried)

    Necrolyte: Lane support from 0 to 1, Carry from 1 to 0
    Lone Druid: Pusher from 2 to 3, jungler from 1 to 2
    Lycanthrope: Pusher from 2 to 1
    Totally agreed on your thoughts after I've thought on them.

    Slark: Carry from 0 to 1, Nuker from 0 to 2, Durable from 0 to 1
    His auto-attack damage comes from his 3rd, which is removed upon death or 2 mins as a hero with 1.5 agility gain. Agreed on 1 star nuker. But he is pretty durable to earn 1 star, as he can dispel anti-invis mechanics like dust, track or amplifty damage with his 1st. If they buy a ward, he can easily get away from it with his pounce. Only solution is a gem or a Bloodseeker.


    Post has been updated.
    Last edited by zmbrip; 01-16-2013, 02:17 PM.

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