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Dear Devs: Please make hero names consistent as all Titles, not names

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  • Dear Devs: Please make hero names consistent as all Titles, not names

    Thanks for making Dota 2, it's quite the fun game but one thing has been of great confusion /bother to several players of this game and has lead to confusion in how to refer to your heroes. The inconsistency in naming between lore names and lore titles.

    In the original DotA website, all heroes were listed and referred to by TITLE with a subtitle of their LORE NAME!
    http://www.playdota.com/heroes

    My proposal: stop mixing up lore names and lore titles when referring to heroes and make all characters listed by TITLE. Change Mirana to Princess of the Moon. Change Luna to Moon Rider. So on and so forth. But have some subtitle so that people who want to see what their names are can see.

    I don't believe ordering each character by lore name would be a good idea, as some names simply aren't easy to pronounce/ spell. However, titles are a different story.

    I'd like to see:
    Princess of the Moon
    Name: Mirana

    Lifestealer
    Name: N'aix

    etc.

    Sometimes names are used, sometimes titles are used. It leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion:
    Sven? Shadow Shaman? Puck? Witch Doctor? Mirana? Lifestealer? Lina? Crystal Maiden?

    That brings me to Timbersaw for example. Being a new name for this character, the question arose: is that his lore name, meaning Timbersaw the Goblin Shredder? Or is that his lore title, meaning Rizzrak the Timbersaw? Until more info was released nobody really knew. It really should not be that confusing, looking at it we should know either "all heroes are referred to in hero picker by title, so Timbersaw is his title" OR "all heroes are referred to in hero picker by name, so Timbersaw is his lore name." It's poor design to have such inconsistency.

    So by that logic above,
    Timbersaw
    Name: Rizzrak

    There exists a thread about this issue with hundreds of posts, however no fruitful dev feedback has come of it and also I feel it is located in the wrong thread. It's located in Lore when it should be more of a Hero Picker type thread. By lore, we know what are the names and what are the titles, thus it's in-game in the hero picker and other in-game options that refer to heroes that we need to have consistency.

    Why not make it Rogue Knight, Shadow Shaman, Faerie Dragon, Witch Doctor, Princess of the Moon, Lifestealer, Slayer, Crystal Maiden, etc. (preferred)
    Yes some will be displeased that they don't see their favorite hero's name, hence you should list it by title and include the name underneath or something like that.

    Some have argued that names, being as inconsistent as they are, are being chosen due to popularity. HOWEVER this is not true! Lifestealer was more commonly referred to as N'aix, yet in this game he is named Lifestealer. Timbersaw is an obvious exception to this "popularity" rule, it's a totally new "lore title" hence it CANNOT be the "popular" name.

    Some have argued that copyrights are the concern here. Again, this is NOT true. Lore names have been modified (Rikimaru -> Riki) and are used in the hero picker. Lore titles have been modified (Goblin Shredder -> Timbersaw, and Obsidian Destroyer -> Outworld Destroyer) and are used in the hero picker. Copyrights are NOT the concern with this inconsistency, as the devs have already shown they can change at will / modify the copyright-in-question name at will.

    Bottom line: it is the DEV's poor design choice, NOT copyright, and NOT popularity, that has caused this inconsistency in naming of these heroes. And it's only going to cause more confusion down the road, as the list of heroes gets bigger.

    I'd like a dev's response to this thread explaining why we can't have them ALL as titles, even if modified like Outworld Destroyer (instead of the original Obsidian Destroyer).

    My suggestion is to make all heroes listed by their TITLE. Have their names listed below or above or somewhere else for consistency.

    More ideas here:
    http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=166

    Lastly, some have argued "you can rename it yourself by customizing it." Please, this is not about an individual alone asking for consistency, besides myself many have asked for this to be consistent as well. Furthermore, it's also so that all the gamers universally can instantly see and just know "that's that hero's title, what I am referring to in-game is that hero's title. The hero might have a lore name that is a subheading underneath but at least I know what I have picked is the lore title."
    Last edited by walkthewok; 12-31-2012, 08:48 PM.

  • #2
    Imo, make the hero title as standard, then when you hover your mouse above the title, it displays their name. :3
    Fix how reconnection works now!

    Comment


    • #3
      Vice-versa. Names as standard.

      Regardless of outcome, we need fucking consistency.

      Comment


      • #4
        Meh, we don't need people to remember 2 names.
        Pointless.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by walkthewok View Post
          It really should not be that confusing, looking at it we should know either "all champs are referred to in hero picker by title, so Timbersaw is his title" OR "all champs are referred to in hero picker by name, so Timbersaw is his lore name." It's poor design to have such inconsistency.
          You good sir, disqualified your constructive feedback into a trollfest.

          So let me help you:

          Originally posted by walkthewok View Post
          It really should not be that confusing, looking at it we should know either "all heroes are referred to in hero picker by title, so Timbersaw is his title" OR "all heroes are referred to in hero picker by name, so Timbersaw is his lore name." It's poor design to have such inconsistency.
          /fixed

          Ontopic: I think changing every hero name to their title sucks. Yes, I hate the inconsistency but playing the "Moon Rider" just sounds bad.

          Solution: Just display both. Seriously though, I don't know the lore names of Chaos Knight, Witch Doctor or Shadow Shaman. Seems like the inconsistency isn't completely wrong.

          Comment


          • #6
            well, i agree with displaying both the name and title, many players don't played DotA 1 and don't know some(basic IMO) heroes names like Furion, the Nature's Prophet. althogh some names can't be used, as far as i know, for copyright issues i.e. Thrall, the Disruptor

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hurt View Post
              You good sir, disqualified your constructive feedback into a trollfest.

              So let me help you:



              /fixed

              Ontopic: I think changing every hero name to their title sucks. Yes, I hate the inconsistency but playing the "Moon Rider" just sounds bad.

              Solution: Just display both. Seriously though, I don't know the lore names of Chaos Knight, Witch Doctor or Shadow Shaman. Seems like the inconsistency isn't completely wrong.
              Thank you, adjusted accordingly. Also, your solution to display both would be good, IF there is consistency (i.e. it shows the TITLE and then name as subheading, or shows the lore NAME and then title as subheading). Also, you don't know the Lore Names of Chaos Knight, Witch Doctor, or Shadow Shaman because 1) in-game right now they are some of the heroes being referred to by title, and 2) Chaos Knight doesn't have a lore name yet. Otherwise, if Witch Doctor and Shadow Shaman right now were referred to as Zharvakko and Rhasta, you would know them in-game as such. Additionally, your opinion "Moon Rider" just sounds bad can be equally applied to all the current heroes who are being named by generic titles.

              The main problem is this. Look at characters like, Tiny, Tinker, and Timbersaw. Are those their titles? Or are those their lore names? It could easily go either way.
              ____ the Tiny
              ____ the Tinker <-actual
              ____ the Timbersaw <-actual
              or
              Tiny the _______ <-actual
              Tinker the ______
              Timbersaw the _______

              Unless we look into to see what valve has decided, we CANNOT know for certain what their lore name or title is. (if Tiny as a title it would obviously be a facetious one, Tinker could be a name, same with Timbersaw could also be a name). The problem is unless we look up each individual lore and understand, we won't know if that's their title or name. And it shouldn't be that confusing to know. Why be convoluted? It's not optimized and it just doesn't make sense.


              Originally posted by NecroBr View Post
              well, i agree with displaying both the name and title, many players don't played DotA 1 and don't know some(basic IMO) heroes names like Furion, the Nature's Prophet. althogh some names can't be used, as far as i know, for copyright issues i.e. Thrall, the Disruptor
              Another BIG problem. Some name changes are hidden/ not very clear. His title in-game is Nature's Prophet, and people still refer to him as Furion, but he's NOT Furion. Ah, you see, his Dota 2 name changed to Tequoia. And where is the clear sign saying "Nature's Prophet, Name: Tequoia?" Nowhere to be found easily at least.

              Originally posted by 5chneemensch View Post
              Vice-versa. Names as standard.

              Regardless of outcome, we need fucking consistency.
              Agree about the consistency. If names were standard, how will you know what to search for in terms of heroes when the name changes? When a name changes, there is no logic to say "oh, that must be the new hero's name." You have to go out of your way to learn it. At least if the title changes (Obsidian Destroyer -> Outworld Destroyer, or Goblin Shredder -> Timbersaw) there's some meaning behind the title that will allow you to associate the new title with the old and say "oh he's Timbersaw" or "oh he's still OD", vs Tequoia, i.e. "what the heck that's not his name, it's FURION, what does Tequoia have anything to do with Furion?"
              Hence my recommendation: Keep it as titles.

              However, if names must be used instead of titles for the purpose of consistency, so be it.

              Originally posted by wesai View Post
              Imo, make the hero title as standard, then when you hover your mouse above the title, it displays their name. :3
              That's a great idea! Or something along those lines, i.e. reverse Names displayed and then titles, would go a big way!

              Dev response please?
              Last edited by walkthewok; 12-31-2012, 09:15 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                well personally i actually like how its inconsistent, I think it adds more variety to all the hero names and stuff. It doesn't really matter much either way though. The one thing I wouldn't want to see is each hero having both a title and name because then people will call heroes by different names and it can be very confusing for new players.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Some names cannot be used like Furion, Priestess of the Moon, Tauren Chieftain, etc... because Blizzard owns it.
                  Last edited by BNi-PoweR.; 12-31-2012, 11:18 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Agreed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Is anyone out there actually confused by this?
                      Trouble finding your hero or remembering who's who?

                      I really don't think this is an issue. Less names to remember. If you just joined from Dota 1, you'll catch on quickly.

                      Sure, some people still throw out old names ("why would you pick naix", "furion p top"), but I've never seen this be an actual problem in communication ("who's naix? oh. Thx")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well i am from dota 1, but names are pretty important. To me the colors are hard for other plays to respond to, i call purple he responds 5 sec later and gray isnt gray. But if i call hero name they respond faster.

                        However players new to dota 2 or never played wc dota would not know who naix is if they never read the lore in learning section. I think it would be nice to add their name somewhere and also when u pick heroes, show their skills, lore, and name.

                        Back to topic: yes we need consistency. +1

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BNi-PoweR. View Post
                          Some names cannot be used like Furion, Priestess of the Moon, Tauren Chieftain, etc... because Blizzard owns it.
                          As I mentioned already, copyright is NOT the main issue, it is a separate issue that is merely somewhat related but does not contribute to the inconsistencies. They have already changed names (Rikimaru -> Riki, Furion -> Tequoia), and already changed titles (Goblin Shredder -> Timberclaw, Obsidian Destroyer -> Outworld Destroyer, Priestess of the Moon -> Princess of the Moon, and even then they label her Mirana though they gave her a new title). Copyright name changes are NOT the issue here, in actuality there are two separate issues.

                          Issue 1: Valve has not yet come up with BOTH a lore name AND a lore title yet for EVERY hero since they thought of tackling this as they went. So they are doing this one step at a time. Thus some heroes don't even have lore names yet (like Anti-Mage, whose name used to be Magina?) However this has lead to a mess in the names in the game, titles and names mixed up galore. The all have a label, but what good is a label if it doesn't tell us what kind of label it is? Is it a name label? Is it a title label?

                          Issue 2: As a result of issue 1, Valve has decided to just throw into the hero pick whatever "label" they currently have for that hero. Even then, it's not consistent, some of their heroes have both titles and names, yet they in-game label the heroes sometimes with their name, sometimes with their title, even when NO COPYRIGHT ISSUES ARE AT STAKE.

                          Though some heroes currently do not have lore names, every hero has a TITLE even if they don't have a lore name (yet). Hence we should name them all for now by titles, with lore names as a sub-heading or addendum.

                          Also, note the upcoming heroes:
                          Unreleased Hero status

                          "These are heroes that are currently in a moderately advanced state of development by Valve and should be released "soon". Note: The heroes are ranked in order of state of development present in Dota 2 beta files, not in order of release.
                          Unreleased Hero status

                          LABEL Type
                          Medusa <--- lore name
                          Troll Warlord <---lore title
                          Bristleback <---lore title
                          Tuskarr <---lore title

                          Even with upcoming releases this is still very, very much inconsistent. What gives?

                          Lamprey, devs, please respond!
                          Last edited by walkthewok; 01-01-2013, 02:50 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It would be a good reason, that it's not a main issue at the moment, so until they release it, they just go with this labeling. The thing with the name-title pair is how much and why do we need it?

                            1. It's clear that on progaming level it doesn't really matter, everyone knows everything, they occupy one phrase easily, also mostly use shortrened names for faster communication.

                            2. The names come from the past, so the game and the gamers history with dota is something that calls this urge to settle this question, and thus we discuss it right here. Also this history gave the communication a level, a layer or a group of players a register that uses these old names and titles untill nowadays, which makes it harder for new players. And don't fear the new ones, I don't think that would be so hard to learn the 2 different things. Also from the names or titles the ones stuck in the heads were those which you could learn or write/say easier.

                            3. So why do we need them anyway? The current lables not always the ones which stuck. Also, and this is more importaint to me: it gives the game something special and brings closer to you. I know it's not the best argument, but something with a proper name makes it you more familiar, and makes you to stick with the game more. A way for valve to pump the addiction potential of dota.

                            Edit: Gorgon was Medusa's name. And if there's a law issue it can be slipped without any trouble: just rename it, that not all of the heroes... a necessary bad. Btw slip away with names: there's a settlement in Ethiopia. Gorgon e.g. is mythical, sue the ancient greeks! And I think one can find more.
                            Last edited by Artanis; 01-05-2013, 06:20 PM.

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                            • #15
                              I like the minor inconsistency.

                              Imo names are not optimal at all. The average player won't know who Lesale Deathbringer is. They'll remember who Venomancer is, because he's a giant poison snake thing. This is true of a ton of heroes. Nobody without lots of time will easily remember what a Karroch is. But name him Beastmaster and it's easy to know because he's the dude with the axes who controls beasts. Sometimes too, it's just shorter to use the title, like in Ursa's case. Seriously, some of these characters have really weird names and it's not outright clear to anyone who you're talking about unless you're "in the know." I don't even have to know what a Dota is to know what Venomancer might do. Or that Ursa is a bear. The hell is a Magina? Oh, he's an Anti-Mage, he must hate magic and be able to disrupt mages.

                              The opposite however for someone like Meepo. Meepo's name is super easy to remember. Him being a Geomancer is not exactly memorable. His earth ties are not really stressed at all on the character, his lore, or anything beside some particles on his abilities. I hear Geomancer and I picture someone more like Earthshaker or Tiny, and I'm sure I'd not be the only one. Same for Magnus (his title is a made up species of animal lol). I don't even know Slark's title. Nightcrawler? That's not really obvious for a prisoner fish dude who can turn into a giant cloud of darkness.

                              Valve seems to smartly go with the name more easily remembered by the most people. The "obvious" name of the character, whether in some cases that's their title or in some other cases their real name.
                              Last edited by ned_ballad; 01-05-2013, 10:12 PM.

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