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Thread: Proof that visible MMR doesn't change anything

  1. #41
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    Hi again....

    Anyway, regarding the OP, ixdl is basically crap. I played it for a while, tried to like it, but it has a few fatal flaws. First of all, as someone else mentioned there is no matchmaking system. You just join a game. Second, there are so few players that the chances of 10 players of similar skill trying to find a game at the same time are basically nonexistant. And third, people rage quite or throw games way too frequently. In any case, I don't think it's fair to use ixdl as an argument for whether or not to show ratings.

    If you'd like a better analogy than ixdl, I'd suggest either HoN or LoL. These games are both similar to DotA and have publicly displayed ratings. I have played many games on each (probably 300 HoN games, maybe only 50 LoL games, didn't like it that much). I have never heard of anybody who plays HoN being unhappy about showing ratings. I have never heard of any HoN player who believes that ratings are inaccurate, except for a gross minority of trolls. This is because the rating system is transparent. All players know exactly what affects their rating, and how much. Since it is a good system, there is nothing to complain about.

    Conversely, many DotA 2 players (maybe the majority, maybe not, but a major chunk of the population in any case) are quite displeased about the lack of displayed MMR. People like transparency. Why was I matched with that other player? Was our team really that much better/worse than the other, or did we just have a bad game? How will this affect my future matchmaking? Should I invite that guy to play again? Is MM working as it should? Am I a good player? Am I as awesome as I think I am?

    Now, your thread title is "Proof that MMR doesn't change anything." Well, let's see, what is it SUPPOSED to change? What it changes is your knowledge of yourself, of others, and of how you compare with others. And it certainly does change those things. It is nearly impossible to gauge another player's skill from a single game, or even from a dozen games, because each game is completely different. To gauge a players skill, you must gather data from hundreds of games, and factor in the knowledge of how good each other player in each of those games is. An MMR algorithm can do this. A player cannot.

    So, to close, my counterargument is that MMR DOES change something: your knowledge of players' skill (not 100% accurate, I know but pretty good overall). Is this desired? I would argue yes, because having spent a lot of time in HoN, I understand that this is a feature that improves the game overall.

    I'm curious, have you played much HoN or LoL?

  2. #42
    Basic Member ranaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callipygius View Post
    Hi again....

    Anyway, regarding the OP, ixdl is basically crap. I played it for a while, tried to like it, but it has a few fatal flaws. First of all, as someone else mentioned there is no matchmaking system. You just join a game. Second, there are so few players that the chances of 10 players of similar skill trying to find a game at the same time are basically nonexistant. And third, people rage quite or throw games way too frequently. In any case, I don't think it's fair to use ixdl as an argument for whether or not to show ratings.

    If you'd like a better analogy than ixdl, I'd suggest either HoN or LoL. These games are both similar to DotA and have publicly displayed ratings. I have played many games on each (probably 300 HoN games, maybe only 50 LoL games, didn't like it that much). I have never heard of anybody who plays HoN being unhappy about showing ratings. I have never heard of any HoN player who believes that ratings are inaccurate, except for a gross minority of trolls. This is because the rating system is transparent. All players know exactly what affects their rating, and how much. Since it is a good system, there is nothing to complain about.

    Conversely, many DotA 2 players (maybe the majority, maybe not, but a major chunk of the population in any case) are quite displeased about the lack of displayed MMR. People like transparency. Why was I matched with that other player? Was our team really that much better/worse than the other, or did we just have a bad game? How will this affect my future matchmaking? Should I invite that guy to play again? Is MM working as it should? Am I a good player? Am I as awesome as I think I am?

    Now, your thread title is "Proof that MMR doesn't change anything." Well, let's see, what is it SUPPOSED to change? What it changes is your knowledge of yourself, of others, and of how you compare with others. And it certainly does change those things. It is nearly impossible to gauge another player's skill from a single game, or even from a dozen games, because each game is completely different. To gauge a players skill, you must gather data from hundreds of games, and factor in the knowledge of how good each other player in each of those games is. An MMR algorithm can do this. A player cannot.

    So, to close, my counterargument is that MMR DOES change something: your knowledge of players' skill (not 100% accurate, I know but pretty good overall). Is this desired? I would argue yes, because having spent a lot of time in HoN, I understand that this is a feature that improves the game overall.

    I'm curious, have you played much HoN or LoL?
    I don't think OP will read all this
    OT: No he obviously hasn't played HoN or LoL
    Never underestimate the power of the masses.

  3. #43
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    Solo player cant win a match with four russians that queue for english language and then spam in russian while failing astronomically. Im not a pro player. Im good to mediocre. I didn't have original wc3 and my only experience in dota was scrubbing at the bottom of garena and eurobattlenet, a fan cracked version for poor kids like me. What? Only recently i got ability to support my own gaming desires and buy legit games. But that is besides the point. I was mocked by my school friends for sucking at dota. I was called an idiot and a noob by my close friends. But i was mindblown by the game. Being good at wcIII mods k rushed tower as agil carry at level one. I died. Games i were in were horrible. But i endured it. For the sake of the game. I tried my best. And after sometime i got everything right. I wanted to help people learn. I do today too. BUt a person failing over and over and ignoring advices make me angry. I rage but so less then when j had to deal with leavers and feeders on garena. I stayed for the joy of the game. And rarely, as solo casual a game would come up. Epic game when we are both balanced. It is that experience that took my heart. Then here was hon, promising custom maps and old heroes from dota only in new engine and updated graphics. It was responsive, reactive and more aggressive then dota. I was in beta and the game was great. Then they made me pay for it. So i did. Number of players plummeted down to barely 30k. I was patient. Soon f2p came out and a bunch of new people too, claiming to be pro. Match after match i would lose due to inability to work with people doing poor judgement and even poorer plays. I came down from 1600 I reached barely. I was orange player. I was pissed. My fun was now exchanged to some quasi-mmo stat hunting game where a number based on my luck to get a proper team determines my lvl of skill. It means that instantly all solo queuers are bad. One hero doesn't win or lose the match. Its a team that does. If I pick a role ill do damn best to fulfill it, but someone else must fulfill his too. I cant do mid if support is calling himself carry(Rubics and Dazzles i had in dota2). Forced to buy wards as a carry 'cus no one will do it. Losing farm 'cus laner picked melee mage. And then hon slaps me on an orange position. What do i do? I pick a carry in hon. Team already calls GG as the worst player on team just picked the most important role. I get flamed by the same team before the match even begins. I win the match. 12/4. Died 'cus a higher ranked player doesn't wanna support a lower numbered scrub. Game ends. Now my team is flaming enemy team for dieing to a oj scrub.
    Tldr: Go play WoW if you need numbers to show u progress. Go play lol to be trolled by high tier players.
    Or get a five man team and go pro in tmm. But leave my solo queue out of that crappy mmr system. Matches sometimes suck, sometimes they are awesome.
    Last edited by Kusariyaro; 09-22-2013 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Writting on a touchscreen requires more pratcice

  4. #44
    ^nobody taught you in school how to fucking write in a way that people will actually bother to read it?

    Jesus fucking Christ...

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeWindwalker View Post
    ^nobody taught you in school how to fucking write in a way that people will actually bother to read it?

    Jesus fucking Christ...
    Go away.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusariyaro View Post
    Go away.
    I did read through it and tbh, it wasnt worth it. You lack any valid arguments and it is quite hard to determinate whether you like the current MM or want it to change.
    MEH

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeWindwalker View Post
    One sided games are less the fault of matchmaking and more the fault of the games current state.
    Even pro games are stomps most of the time.
    +1 fuck icefrog please change back to 2009 meta

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooningCat View Post
    I did read through it and tbh, it wasnt worth it. You lack any valid arguments and it is quite hard to determinate whether you like the current MM or want it to change.
    My arguement is HoN's MMR is a scourge of solo queueing. I don't want that in Dota2. It is elitist enough. The last punch in the face would be to get called a noob before the match even starts.
    TlDr you can't quantify a player's skill in a team game. Game requires a team to win. Not a single epic deny last hit player.

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