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Thread: Interesting distribution of AD games

  1. #21
    Basic Member Linken's Avatar
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    I'm Pink/Blue about 50% of the time, as well soloqueue, and nearly every time when I'm a party leader.

    I thought it was due to me being the highest MMR player on my team, usually, playing this silly mode.

    Though I'm also usually very fast in clicking Accept for my games, and my brother thinks that's the real reason.

  2. #22
    Basic Member Heh_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CvP View Post
    Yes, everyone gets their own hero and skill pools but they still have to go thru a quick draft.
    This means, for example, if you see your enemy picking mass invis spells, you can counter with some invis detection spell or pick more aoe skills (if you have those available and if you are quick/intelligent enough to make those decisions).
    I get the feeling that there aren't enough heroes available to give each person a separate pool of a decent size. It makes drafting interesting, but what happens if one person gets kunkka, tiny, earthshaker and BH in his pool? He's gonna get the ultimate 1-shot wombo combo, and no one can do anything to stop it. At least having a collective hero pool allows the opposing team (and even idiots in your own team) some flexibility to counterpick.

    It solves a problem that doesn't matter: radiant advantage.
    The core issue is: one side has huge advantage which is not fixed.

    When you get randomly assigned to whatever side for 5 games but get first pick (or 2nd) anyways, you have a huge advantage (or disadvantage). So you are just morphing the issue instead of fixing it.
    I get your point. I feel there's 2 parts to this problem:

    1: Stupidly broken skills that are way better than anything else: DWS, perma invis, grow.
    2: Current draft order heavily favors radiant because they have "earlier" picks in the first round.

    Point 1 is a bit problematic, and can be directly addressed by 2 ways: Removing heroes with OP abilities (probably won't happen), or add more heroes into the pool (being able to draft abilities from 16 heroes instead of 12). I think adding more abilities evens the odds by giving the 2nd team a chance to pick up OP abilities for themselves. Combined with a 1-2-2-2-2-1 draft order, I think the first-pick advantage can be nullified to a large extent.

  3. #23
    Basic Member Noya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heh_ View Post
    I get the feeling that there aren't enough heroes available to give each person a separate pool of a decent size.
    You can give up to 10 heroes for 10 players with the current hero pool (maybe 9 if you remove the ones that are disabled at the moment).

    LoD gave 20/40/60 random hero pool for each player with -D2/4/6 mode, skills can be taken more than once if you want that.

    This way every player can have a good build and have fun. Yes someone might get lucky/clever and draft a oneshot combo, but there's also 4 stun/nuke combos or mobility comboes that can counter a oneshot build for example.
    Last edited by Noya; 03-11-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #24
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
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    What Noya said +

    Quote Originally Posted by Heh_ View Post
    I get the feeling that there aren't enough heroes available to give each person a separate pool of a decent size. It makes drafting interesting, but what happens if one person gets kunkka, tiny, earthshaker and BH in his pool? He's gonna get the ultimate 1-shot wombo combo, and no one can do anything to stop it. At least having a collective hero pool allows the opposing team (and even idiots in your own team) some flexibility to counterpick.
    You can't get those 4 in your pool if X is 6. And chances to get kunkka/tiny, earthshaker, bh in one pool is extremely low.
    Also, if you do get it, the enemy can see your hero pool, spell pool and what spells you pick. So they will know if you are going for that strat and can try to counter it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heh_ View Post
    2: Current draft order heavily favors radiant because they have "earlier" picks in the first round.
    You still don't get the problem. It is not about "radiant." It is about one team.
    It would have been radiant if you could choose your starting side. It is random. So there is a 50-50 chance you get to be on the advantage team.
    If you simply just alternate first pick between dire radiant, it will still be 50-50 chance of you to be on the advantage team. Get it?
    Last edited by CvP; 03-11-2014 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #25
    Basic Member Heh_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CvP View Post
    What Noya said +


    You can't get those 4 in your pool if X is 6. And chances to get kunkka/tiny, earthshaker, bh in one pool is extremely low.
    Or simple things like meepo + pugna. 5x nether wards really isn't fun.


    You still don't get the problem. It is not about "radiant." It is about one team.
    It would have been radiant if you could choose your starting side. It is random. So there is a 50-50 chance you get to be on the advantage team.
    If you simply just alternate first pick between dire radiant, it will still be 50-50 chance of you to be on the advantage team. Get it?
    I used "radiant" because that's the how the current draft order works. If I swapped the word "radiant" for "one team", the content of my post doesn't change. I was suggesting ideas in order to reduce the advantage that the side with first pick (regardless of radiant/dire) has.

  6. #26
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heh_ View Post
    Or simple things like meepo + pugna. 5x nether wards really isn't fun.
    That's another issue unrelated to this topic.

  7. #27
    Basic Member Hive's Avatar
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    I don't really like the idea of everyone drafting from their own pool. Part of the game mode is striving for some combination but in the end working with what you get.

  8. #28
    Volunteer Moderator CvP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    but in the end working with what you get.
    That's where the balance falls apart and it becomes a luck-fest.

    This is why LoD players still prefer LoD. I know a whole clan who stopping playing normal dota just to play LoD. In dota2, they don't even touch AD.

  9. #29
    Basic Member Heh_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CvP View Post
    That's where the balance falls apart and it becomes a luck-fest.

    This is why LoD players still prefer LoD. I know a whole clan who stopping playing normal dota just to play LoD. In dota2, they don't even touch AD.
    This is what I don't understand. Why is having a separate pool of abilities for each player more balanced/less reliant on luck? The OP abilities are now limited to the lucky person that randoms it.. pray that he doesn't get 2/3 really synergistic skills and roflstomp everyone with them. Counterpicking to break up OP combos is nonexistent.

    The DWS + netherward/tombstone combo isn't much of an issue in the current form of AD because any team with half a brain will counterpick the latter abilities. If you have separate ability pools, then pray that the guy who gets them is on your team.

  10. #30
    Basic Member soprof's Avatar
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    Was it supposed to be balanced? It's almost designed to be what you call "luckfest", it should allow the random team to win.

    Even in worst case scenarios there's some valid gameplay, one can still fail to firstpick what was really imba.
    You're only as strong as your weakest link.
    -Thomas Reid


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