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Thread: Ban Rikimaru because of Permanent Invisibility

  1. #11
    Basic Member matthe2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    So you are saying you can't use detection when they don't reveal them first? You can't say enemy with perma invis is close when he uses a spell? There is no difference between a hero with perma invis in ad, and Riki with his perma invis in a normal match. Both are easily countered the exact same way.
    You certainly didn't play enough AD to judge that passive correctly imo. First of all: Why should you use any spells to reveal yourself to begin with? If you have some AoE nukes to push/anti-push, then you will obviously use it, but other than that you simply don't use any spells at all, unless you are certain you can kill someone alone or with assistance of your team mates. And with that permanent invisibility you can sneak up everywhere once you hit lvl 2. If you have a stun, it is the same as if you would have a permanent Invisibility Rune. You can be woods, mid lane, bot lane, top to create any advantageous situation. With the old Permanent Invisibility this was not possible. The current 6.82 Rikimaru doesnt have those benefits. He can cast a smoke screen on lvl 2, but who the hell cares... Even in later stages of the game a Rikimaru has to reveal himself to make some good amount of damage and needs farm! But in AD this is uneccessary. There you can random a range int hero like skywrath mage and be lucky enough to get Riki Perma Invis. Next you get one stun and Skywrath Ulti and he kills anyone without revealing himself. Before you even realize that he is there, you are dead and your mates might not even be able to support you at that point. At lvl 6 (if you are solo mid, you are lvl 6 minute 5) you can have 1 lvl in perma invis, 3 levels in Tinker laser, one level in Sven Stun and one level in Skywrath ulti. Who the hell should stop you, unless you buy sentries minute 5 o_O No one will ever see that Skywrath reveal himself. He will roam or farm and kill anyone. And there are tons of other great ultis which deal tons of damage, as listed in a post of mine above. The problem is as I said perma invis + nuke ultimates and that should be addressed. Before that it was only 3 normal nukes + Riki ulti, yet the damage with riki as a normal spell + a nuking ultimate is waaaaaaaaay higher on early levels.

    So what should I do now when I face such a situation? Waste tons on money on sentries on lvl 5, always group as 2/3 heroes? Sentries cost 200 gold and that is tons of money in early game. And once the enemy with perma invis realizes we have any sentires he will simply not gank on lanes and just farm/lvl up/wait until they run out/try to snipe someone in woods/river etc. You cannot ward everywhere... A gem is out of question at that point, using dust is way too late since you will be most likely dead by that point. So nerf the thing, that you do not get revealed once you use a spell. Once the enemies can see you, they can do shit. If they do not see you, it is either too late for you and you are dead, or you need to waste tons of ressources in to counter that little passive invis... Compare it to Techies Mines, just way more devastating.

  2. #12
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    I can't be bothered to get detection because I picked all carry skills I'm not supp in a mode where everyone can play any role.
    You need from 2 to 4 packs of sentries and a Dust charge (980 gold maximum for entire laning phase of approx 12 mins; average creep bounty is 40; you need 25 creeps for that or 2 creeps per minute - easily achievable).

  3. #13
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    It's almost like you are one of those 2k scrubs who cry about how broken invis is in this game... Tell me, how do you play against invis in other modes than in AD? You just let them make kills everywhere and don't bother getting CHEAP detection which can be farmed by a single woods camp?
    It doesn't matter AT ALL what other spells they get in AD, because it's the EXACT same thing. An invis Gondar can make endless kills with his skillset when you don't bother buying detection. A riki can make endless kills with his set when you don't buy detection.

    Do you know what happens when a Riki drops his smoke bomb on you when you are cm? You usually die when you use your detection after he used his spell. So how do you deal with that? You place your sentries before he is there. You anticipate him coming there to kill you so you place the ward earlier. When you see him coming you disable him and run before he can do anything. Even better, you have an ally close to you somewhere hiding, ready to jump on him once he shows himself. That's an easy kill on him. One set of wards costs you 200 gold, one kill on riki gives you at least twice as much back. And you can kill him multiple times with one set of wards, so don't even try to say that it's not worth it.

    If you know the enemy has perma invis and a spell combo which can instagib you, you play carefully and place sentry wards before, prepraring for him to strike. This however is not needed on lvl 1-5 because he should never be able to gib you with anything so early into the game... so you can use your detection when he uses a spell (HE DOESNT NEED TO REVEAL HIMSELF, USING A SPELL MEANS HE IS VERY CLOSE AND NEARBY) and shut him down there.
    If he has rather slow spells which need some time to kill someone, then he never should be a problem when you'd buy detection.
    Please, just call me buny.

  4. #14
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    But thats a very shallow analysis bu3ny - other invis skills take mana to stay permamently invis and it was this difference till recent riki update that he needed to wait for invis till 6th level. The thing is that this skill now combines well with most ultimates while every other invis except for nature's guise(which needs trees range) breaks on casting. So skill that was usually set to work well for player on the mid-game time is now moved to early game and it gives always advantage for the user over the enemy - you either get to be invisible, stay alive and get farm or the countering enemy spends money.

    I'm not opting for removal though - it won't change much with current picking system.

  5. #15
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaperPL View Post
    But thats a very shallow analysis bu3ny - other invis skills take mana to stay permamently invis and it was this difference till recent riki update that he needed to wait for invis till 6th level. The thing is that this skill now combines well with most ultimates while every other invis except for nature's guise(which needs trees range) breaks on casting. So skill that was usually set to work well for player on the mid-game time is now moved to early game and it gives always advantage for the user over the enemy - you either get to be invisible, stay alive and get farm or the countering enemy spends money.

    I'm not opting for removal though - it won't change much with current picking system.
    Still doesn't change anything about it being just like in non-ad mode. You can just play without detection, and Riki is basically untouchable. He's there just as deadly against supports as heroes with perma invis can be in AD. It takes just as much effort to counter him in non-AD than it takes in AD. Countering him means he basically has only 3 spells. That fact never changed, detection turns the whole spell completely useless. And in case of AD, it probably also makes it really hard for him to get his spells off.

    And I say it a 3rd time, the fact that Nature's Guise needs trees only matters when the enemy team has mass anti-tree spells like Chakram or whatever. Else it doesn't matter at all and the mana cost is still nothing.
    Please, just call me buny.

  6. #16
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    You're wrong - there is a difference - riki outside AD cannot inflict damage while invisible. Also mana cost and work times for nature's guise ain't nothing for tanks in AD on early levels

  7. #17
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    ^The thing is, you don't need the invis to deal damage. You only need to get close and land your smoke screen. Then you deal tons of damage with a few backstab hits. The moment he throws that smoke bomb, many heroes are helpless in the early game because of lack of escaping items, the slow and the silence. In AD, it's literally just the damage going from backstab to a spell. The invis is really only needed to get close to your target and nothing changes in the way of countering that.

    And with the right starting items, every hero can easily support 60 mana per minute...
    Please, just call me buny.

  8. #18
    Basic Member matthe2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    It's almost like you are one of those 2k scrubs who cry about how broken invis is in this game... Tell me, how do you play against invis in other modes than in AD? You just let them make kills everywhere and don't bother getting CHEAP detection which can be farmed by a single woods camp?
    It doesn't matter AT ALL what other spells they get in AD, because it's the EXACT same thing. An invis Gondar can make endless kills with his skillset when you don't bother buying detection. A riki can make endless kills with his set when you don't buy detection.
    All other invisible heroes come out of their invisibility when they use a spell or do an attack. That is the main difference here. With Riki Invis you dont have to do that. There is as you mentioned Nature's Guise, but it has way too many limitations to do much damage in the early game. Riki Invis doesnt have them. And yet again, please play that mode and get to play against an enemy who has that passive + 3 nukes.

    Do you know what happens when a Riki drops his smoke bomb on you when you are cm? You usually die when you use your detection after he used his spell. So how do you deal with that? You place your sentries before he is there. You anticipate him coming there to kill you so you place the ward earlier. When you see him coming you disable him and run before he can do anything. Even better, you have an ally close to you somewhere hiding, ready to jump on him once he shows himself. That's an easy kill on him. One set of wards costs you 200 gold, one kill on riki gives you at least twice as much back. And you can kill him multiple times with one set of wards, so don't even try to say that it's not worth it.
    Rikimaru is easily countered in normal games because his main damage comes from auto attacking and thus losing invisibility. In AD you dont lose it because you simply cast spells and kill with that alone, you dont need to auto attack. And that is overpowered, please try to understand that!

    If you know the enemy has perma invis and a spell combo which can instagib you, you play carefully and place sentry wards before, prepraring for him to strike. This however is not needed on lvl 1-5 because he should never be able to gib you with anything so early into the game... so you can use your detection when he uses a spell (HE DOESNT NEED TO REVEAL HIMSELF, USING A SPELL MEANS HE IS VERY CLOSE AND NEARBY) and shut him down there.
    If he has rather slow spells which need some time to kill someone, then he never should be a problem when you'd buy detection.
    This sentence proofs yet again that you did never played that mode. He will gank lvl 2. Especially since each 2 minutes runes spawn on both sides. You go for a Bounty Rune and then with a Stun to assist in mid. Or f.e. you have Skewer + Permanent Invis and you dont gank mid lvl 2? Of course you do.... And as I mentioned in previous posts, there are tons of ultimates which deal huge amounts of damage and make that spell in combination of Perma Invis ridiculously overpowered. He will always get one of those ultis since the draft pool consists of 12 heroes and the hero pool in AD being very limited (tons of heroes aren't playable there). So you will always get easy and fast kills. Also a Dagon only costs around 2.700 gold... You have that thing minute 8-9 and you do even more damage.

  9. #19
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthe2 View Post
    Rikimaru is easily countered in normal games because his main damage comes from auto attacking and thus losing invisibility. In AD you dont lose it because you simply cast spells and kill with that alone, you dont need to auto attack. And that is overpowered, please try to understand that!
    No, it is exactly the same. As I said, when he casts spells, you know he's there. He doesn't need to reveal himself for you to know he's there.. That's what detection is for ffs. You don't have to wait for him to reveal himself with attacks to be able to use detection, you can use it earlier..
    Please, just call me buny.

  10. #20
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    No, you're wrong - its not the same - you need detection to cast spells so it costs gold. In normal modes he jumps off his invis and u can hit him with targetted spell or stun. The next thing is that there are a lot of spells that don't indicate the position of a caster when he's invisible because the way they are made like area stuns (avalanche/light strike array) and others that should show you the beam between caster and target but when invisible they are connected to the origin of the world ([0,0,0] in world space) and u only know he's near so you can't target him easly with aoe spells.

    I agree that's still a thing you should counter with detection but the thing is invis nuker can attack multiple heroes when they have no detection in AD while he would most likely fall in normal mode as riki when not farmed.

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