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Thread: [Confirmed] Sleight of Fist deals too little damage against creeps when having Quell

  1. #1

    [Confirmed] Sleight of Fist deals too little damage against creeps when having Quell

    Battle fury bug!Ember spirit's Sleight of Fist with battle fury has a creep damage PENALTY up to 80%!!!
    final.jpg

    6.84 version
    With battlefury:
    6.84 items with battle fury 2.jpg>>6.84 items with battle fury 1.jpg

    Without battlefury:
    6.84 items without battle fury 1.jpg>>6.84 items without battle fury 2.jpg


    6.84-test version
    6.83 items with battle fury 1.jpg>>6.83 items with battle fury 2.jpg




    As you can see, Ember spirit who attacks normally has a damage critical 3159 , and Ember spirit's Sleight of Fist with battle fury has a damage critical 773. (damage PENALTY up to 80%!!! )


    As a big fans of ember spirit, I knew Icefrog modified battlefury few day ago, and ember spirit is getting so weak right away. I cried all the time.
    I tried to figure what have he done to ES, and I guess it is just a part of answer. Trust me, this ember is not for any human being to play.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by tonykitkit1; 05-09-2015 at 03:25 AM.

  2. #2
    Basic Member igo95862's Avatar
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    I made some calculations ad there seems to be a problem:

    Without Battlefury, with 57 bonus damage items:
    [05:16.37] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 76 damage (550->474).
    [05:16.57] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 77 damage (550->473).
    [05:16.77] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 75 damage (484->409).
    [05:16.97] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 77 damage (550->473).

    Level 25 Ember base damage 97 + 57 bonus damage * 0.5 multiplier = 77
    Everything seems right



    With Battlefury:
    [05:42.17] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 90 damage (391->301).
    [05:41.97] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 90 damage (455->365).
    [05:42.57] Ember Spirit hits Treant for 90 damage (363->273).

    However it should be:
    ((97 base damage * 1.6 battle fury multiplier) + 55) * 0.5 = 104.3

  3. #3
    Basic Member Fizz's Avatar
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    So I've tested, and in the OP's setup, if you simply drop Battlefury (while keeping the other items) you do drastically more damage to creeps (on each individual hit) in SoF...

    i.e. Having a Battlefury directly reduces the damage you do to creeps on individual SoF hits, iff you have a bunch of other damage items (1 Rapier is enough to demonstrate the effect).

    e.g. Level 1 Ember SoF onto Hill Troll does 190 with Rapier, 120 with Rapier and Battlefury... similar issue on a ranged creep, below.



    Example combat log here (different test, this time on a Mega creep).
    Last edited by Fizz; 05-09-2015 at 04:34 PM.
    Fizz on dev.dota2.com / Jimmy M on Youtube (a pseudonym)

  4. #4
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    I suppose this also affects the cleave damage onto heroes you get from hitting creeps with that reduced SoF damage. In that case this heavily nerfs his SoF damage against an enemy push with many summoned units.

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    I think this is a critical bug. Hope it gets fixed soon

  6. #6
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    This seems to be an issue with the Quell ability. Against heroes, it works properly.

    A battle fury gives 55 damage, so we use 3 broadswords (18 dmg each) and 1 branch to have 55 damage without a battle fury.

    If we give Ember Spirit on lvl 1 those 4 items and a rapier, he has 54 + 330 + 18*3 + 1 = 439 attack damage.

    Sleight of Fist should deal 439 * 0.5 = 219.5 damage to creeps (considering 0 armor). And it does exactly that.

    Now replace the 3 broadswoards and the branch with a battle fury. His total attack damage stays the same, 54 + 55 + 330 = 439.

    Now, Sleight of Fist does not do 219.5 damage. It does 119 damage.


    So instead of calcualting

    (main attack damage * quell multiplier + raw damage bonus) * SoF penalty = dmg
    (54 * 1.6 + 385) * 0.5 = 235.7

    it calculates
    ((main attack damage * quell multiplier + raw damage bonus) * SoF penalty) * SoF penalty = dmg
    (54 * 1.6 + 385) * 0.5) * 0.5 = 119.5

    So when you have Quell (be it from battle fury or quelling blade), SoF basically reduces your damage by 50% twice.


    E: Or no, I'm confused.. I dont know what it does exactly.

    Last edited by bu3ny; 05-10-2015 at 05:33 AM.
    Please, just call me buny.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    This seems to be an issue with the Quell ability. Against heroes, it works properly.

    E: Or no, I'm confused.. I dont know what it does exactly.

    I think I have found a pattern. The problem is in a pretty weird approach to the formula. These are the formulas that give values from your video:

    (main_att + raw_bonus) * ( 1 + quell_bonus) * sof_pen - (quell_bonus * raw_bonus) = damage

    So, they are first multiplying all damage (main+raw bonus) with bonuses and penalties, and then subtracting raw bonus which is again multiplied by quell BUT not by SOF penalty, and that is the error in the formula.

    The correct formula would be:
    (main_att + raw_bonus) * ( 1 + quell_bonus) * sof_pen - (quell_bonus * raw_bonus * sof_pen) = damage

    Not sure why are they using this approach in the first place, maybe because of priorities of damage block and similar, but it gives close results to your video:

    Without quelling: (55 + 330) *0.5 = 192.5
    With quelling: (55 + 330) * 1.4*0.5 - (0.4*330) = 137.5
    Without BF: (55 + 385) *0.5 = 220
    With BF: (55 + 385) * 1.6*0.5 - (0.6*385) = 121
    Last edited by posnisir; 05-10-2015 at 06:29 AM.

  8. #8
    Volunteer Moderator bu3ny's Avatar
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    ^ Quell does not increase raw damage bonus since 6.85, so it is (55 * 1.4) + 330, not (55 + 330) * 1.4. Sleight of Fist is supposed to reduce that overall damage by 50%, so the formula simply should be

    (((base damage + attribute damage) * (1+ quell)) + raw dmg) * SoF penalty

    so

    ((55 * 1.4) + 330) * 0.5 = 203.5
    Please, just call me buny.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu3ny View Post
    ^ Quell does not increase raw damage bonus since 6.85, so it is (55 * 1.4) + 330, not (55 + 330) * 1.4. Sleight of Fist is supposed to reduce that overall damage by 50%, so the formula simply should be

    (((base damage + attribute damage) * (1+ quell)) + raw dmg) * SoF penalty

    so

    ((55 * 1.4) + 330) * 0.5 = 203.5
    You didn't understand me. That exactly is the problem. They multiply original (base + attr damage) AND raw damage with quell bonus, and then subtract raw damage with quell bonus. Read my post more carefully, because it always gives the correct results and I assure you that is the problem.

    Edit: To make it easier to understand for people that don't do much math:
    5 *( 1 + 0.5) = 7.5
    if you want to apply the 5 only on 1 and not on 0.5, you do:
    5 * (1) = 5
    but you could also do
    5 * (1 + 0.5) - 5* 0.5 = 5
    and this is exactly what they do. They multiply it with ALL of your damage (probably a leftover from previous patches) and then they subtract the raw part, but they forgot to include SOF penalty when subtracting.

    Also, the formula you wrote: (((base damage + attribute damage) * (1+ quell)) + raw dmg) * SoF penalty

    is exactly the same formula as the one I said should be
    (main_att + raw_bonus) * ( 1 + quell_bonus) * sof_pen - (quell_bonus * raw_bonus * sof_pen) = damage

    Try it. They give the same results (203.5 and 236.5). It's just a matter of refactoring.
    Last edited by posnisir; 05-10-2015 at 07:10 AM.

  10. #10
    Basic Member igo95862's Avatar
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    Actually the interaction with bonus damage (green numbers) is causing this issue. On 0 bonus damage there is no issue. I used Bane with Enfeeble to reduce damage and I started doing more damage!

    Ember 25 level with Battle Fury: 97 base and 55 bonus = 152

    I used level 4 Enfeeble - 120 damage: 32 damage




    Now Sleight of Fist actually more then doubles the damage!

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