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Thread: Suggestions for Custom Games

  1. #1
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    Suggestions for Custom Games

    1. Host migration should be effective immediately.

    What is Host migration? Host migration is when a player who is hosting a lobby is disconnected/crashes/leaves and another player is able to take over the map and continue being the host. This was something that was available in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (IW.NET) and it worked in the manner that the game would pause while a new host was found. In case there was not a new host, the game had to end.

    2. Separate MATCHMAKING CUSTOM GAMES from CUSTOM LOBBY CUSTOM GAMES.

    What do you mean? Currently, if I host a custom lobby, players can join through the matchmaking system (at least it seems like it both from hosting myself and by using the matchmaking system). It's greatly frustrating to not be able to control when the game is starting, if someone needs a friend in the game or if you want to make sure everybody have a decent ping to you/the host. We need some level of host privilege if this is going to work. Just like CS:GO have host privileges in dedicated servers.

    3. Allow a game to begin downloading at the moment you start searching for a custom game you currently do not have installed.

    It's another great frustration when you fail to load because the map either doesn't comply with the hosts version or if you take too long to download a map. It's not always that you are searching for a game solo, but most often in a party. If the party leader queues you for a game you don't have, let us download it while we search/meanwhile host is loading the map.

    4. MOST POPULAR CUSTOM GAMES list makes for an uneven distribution of custom games.


    I am certain many of you have played WCIII custom games and seen how their lobby lists works. We can agree that it's so ancient and useless if we compare it to say, CS:GO's dedicated server list in present time. However, many things were done right in WCIII, especially the careless lists of games that were currently available. If I want to play a game of Enfos Team Survival, I can expect around 1-2 minutes search time at peak hours. If I want to play a game of Pudge Wars or Overthrow, it's instantly ready. How could this be? Quite simply put, they are featured popular games. It's an unfair competition for new content creators if their games aren't ever going to hit this list. Let the community decide which games are getting popular, not a Valve list of what is most played. That's a very, very unfair strategy. The Suggested Games tab is more than enough if it rotates every few minutes with new games to see.

    5. Give the party leader control of his party!

    I cannot express my anger with playing yesterday, as my party of two were joining custom games. We would always try and get the best host available,but kept getting paired with 3/5 bars, so naturally we left the lobby to search anew. However I, as the party leader, couldn't leave lobby for my entire party. We had to both manually leave the lobby? How does this make sense? If we are in a party together, we want to play together, leave together, search for games together. Please consider giving the party leader control over his party with regards to joining/leaving/searching. (NOTE: THIS ONLY GOES FOR LOBBY, NOT IN-GAME LEAVING!)

    6. Bars or Ping? Bars or Ping? Bars or Ping?

    We need ping. Actual numbers to devourer. Yes, 4/5 bars equals to 100-120ms, we can see that in-game - why can't you provide us with actual real-time ping to the hosts location? Is it a technical issue with peer2peer not being able to calculate this properly before you are actually in the game? This was a massive criticism in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 as well. Hopefully something can be worked out to ensure a proper understanding of how the ping is between you and the host!

    7. Lobby List: Allow for double-click joining!

    This one explains itself. Currently the lobby lists are being filled up so fast due to their combination with the matchmaking system. I know it's probably due to the game being beta and the player numbers being few, but hopefully once it's released they will be separated so that I am not always getting "This game is full" on a 1/10 lobby. I believe most often it's due to not being able to get into the game fast enough, because you manually have to select the lobby and move your mouse all the way down to "Join Lobby". Let us double-click a game and enter it that way.

    8. Search for the optimal host before readying a matchmaking custom game.

    Currently it will take the first player to join the game capable of hosting and set him as the host. Why wouldn't the lobby instead search for the best host available and switch hosts to whomever can handle the game better for all players? This should exclusively be a feature for MATCHMAKING custom games (which hopefully is separated from the custom games lobby list upon release) so that manually hosted lobby hosts still have the privilege to host their own games.

    9. Make a countdown when the game starts, so you can interrupt the start if a host begins with fewer than maximum players or if you regret starting.

    So many times in this weekend, the host started games like Enfos Team Survival or Omni Party with fewer than maximum people. For Enfos, this means a game ending within 10 minutes. For Omni Parti, it means that many games are longer or shorter than they should be due to not having enough opponents. Please do make a 5 seconds countdown to prevent starting a game with unwanted player numbers.

    Hopefully my suggestions are clear and on point. Let me know if something needs further explanation. By the way; A general issue I found yesterday was opening the console and typing "cancelselect" would crash my game and I would "fail to gather ping information". Maybe that command is supposed to crash the game, but it was rather unfortunate to leave a game this way.
    Last edited by Gozuu; 06-29-2015 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    Added another suggestion after this weeks troublesome Reborn beta testing.

  3. #3
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    Agreeing with pretty much all of this.

    None of these are specific requests either, they're all obvious requests that really should be in the game already.

  4. #4
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    1. Host migration won't work.
    It works in CoD:MW2 and WC3 because the networking infrastructure is peer-to-peer. Everyone has and receives the same information. If the host drops someone else can take over the position since he knows as much as the original host. This doesn't work in Dota 2 because we use a server-client model. The host knows everything and the clients only know what they are supposed to know. If the host suddenly drops noone can take over because noone has all the information. Let's assume you are playing FFA overthrow. The host is in fog, noone else knows where the host is. What happens if the host drops? On top of that most calculation is done on the host PC. Those calculation are lost when the host drops. Noone can replace those information.
    Each network model as its advantages and disadvantages. In a proper client server model maphacking is impossible since you don't receive information you aren't supposed to receive.

    We will have better hosts when the community figures out how to make hostbots, see WC3.
    James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
    * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
    Spoiler: 



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanViet View Post
    1. Host migration won't work.
    It works in CoD:MW2 and WC3 because the networking infrastructure is peer-to-peer. Everyone has and receives the same information. If the host drops someone else can take over the position since he knows as much as the original host. This doesn't work in Dota 2 because we use a server-client model. The host knows everything and the clients only know what they are supposed to know. If the host suddenly drops noone can take over because noone has all the information. Let's assume you are playing FFA overthrow. The host is in fog, noone else knows where the host is. What happens if the host drops? On top of that most calculation is done on the host PC. Those calculation are lost when the host drops. Noone can replace those information.
    Each network model as its advantages and disadvantages. In a proper client server model maphacking is impossible since you don't receive information you aren't supposed to receive.

    We will have better hosts when the community figures out how to make hostbots, see WC3.
    a
    Last edited by Gozuu; 07-09-2015 at 02:35 AM.

  6. #6
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    It's not peer to peer. One guy is becoming host. Host (server) is communicating with all clients. Clients are not communicating with each other.
    They are using a client-server model.
    James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
    * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
    Spoiler: 



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanViet View Post
    It's not peer to peer. One guy is becoming host. Host (server) is communicating with all clients. Clients are not communicating with each other.
    They are using a client-server model.
    a
    Last edited by Gozuu; 07-10-2015 at 06:10 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    Let's correct it then. MW2 also used client-server, WC3 used client-server model as well. They aren't peer-peer as you previously mentioned. I'm not sure why you said they were peer-peer?
    Now I've read it all. If you don't understand what client-server and peer-to-peer means don't argument about it. Just believe me that it won't work in Dota 2.
    James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
    * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
    Spoiler: 



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanViet View Post
    Now I've read it all. If you don't understand what client-server and peer-to-peer means don't argument about it. Just believe me that it won't work in Dota 2.
    I just went over the peer-peer and corrected myself with regards to MW2 and WC3, which both uses client-server and not literally peer-peer. If it works for MW2 and WC3, it should work for DOTA2 as they use the same model for client-server.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozuu View Post
    I just went over the peer-peer and corrected myself with regards to MW2 and WC3, which both uses client-server and not literally peer-peer. If it works for MW2 and WC3, it should work for DOTA2 as they use the same model for client-server.
    Quote Originally Posted by GermanViet View Post
    1. Host migration won't work.
    It works in MW2 and WC3 because the networking infrastructure is peer-to-peer. Everyone has and receives the same information. If the host drops someone else can take over the position since he knows as much as the original host. This doesn't work in Dota 2 because we use a server-client model. The host knows everything and the clients only know what they are supposed to know. If the host suddenly drops noone can take over because noone has all the information. Let's assume you are playing FFA overthrow. The host is in fog, noone else knows where the host is. What happens if the host drops? On top of that most calculation is done on the host PC. Those calculation are lost when the host drops. Noone can replace those information.
    Each network model as its advantages and disadvantages. In a proper client server model maphacking is impossible since you don't receive information you aren't supposed to receive.

    We will have better hosts when the community figures out how to make hostbots, see WC3.

    edit: I was wrong about MW2. The scenario which I described wouldn't work in MW2 at all. Host migration in MW2 only works in certain circumstances. See below.
    Please read my post again.
    In WC3 you receive all information. Including information you aren't supposed to know. That's why maphack is possible. That's why someone else can take over host position.

    WC3 uses peer to peer. This is from their page.
    Does Warcraft III have a Client/Server Model?
    No. Due to the amount of units and the number of players in a game of Warcraft III, it is not possible to implement a straight Client/Server architecture as in Diablo II. We are using a variation of the peer-to-peer model that allows us to eliminate some of the abuses found in StarCraft games.
    source: http://classic.battle.net/war3/faq/features.shtml
    Even Heroes of the Storm is still using peer to peer. (HotS is built on SC2. SC2 and WC3 share a lot of similarities. Same developer. Read the thread since it also mentions Dota 2. He specifically says they are using different networking model.)
    In WC3 all clients are running the same simulation at the same time. They know information they aren't supposed to know. If the host for some reason cuts off a client can take over the host position because he has the same information as the original host.

    In Dota 2, HoN, Strife, LoL it is not possible. Only the host is running the simulation. He has every information. His clients know only things they are supposed to know. If the host drops noone can replace him see my quote. I don't know how you want a client to take over host position if the client has no idea who the other clients are. Clients aren't communicating with each other in client-server. Should the clients be able to connect with each other they still don't have all information to host the game. The whole simulation was run on host PC. Compare it to WC3 where everyone is running the simulation.

    I was wrong about MW2 being peer-to-peer since the information you provided were wrong. I was under the assumption it would work when the host crashes or disconnects. Host migration sometimes works over there because the host doesn't drop but he intentionally leaves the game. The host then sends the missing information which is needed to host to another client. You claimed host migration works when the host disconnects or crashes. That is not true. The game will time out. That is a lot different and the success rate of their variant of host migration isn't exactly high. Host migration in WC3 is far more reliable since it works pretty much always. But the host migration from WC3 won't work and the MW2 version is very unreliable. So host migration only works in MW2 if you hit the leave game button, but when you exit the game, shut down your console/PC, crash, internet hiccup, disconnect etc. it won't work.

    You've spread too much nonsense and even when you researched your information were still wrong. It sounds nice on paper but the reality is a lot different. Next time when you research do it properly. Host migration will never work in a client-server model when the host crashes or disconnects.
    Last edited by GermanViet; 07-10-2015 at 04:19 AM.
    James "2GD" Harding's career as a Dota 2 host on Valve events
    * 25.02.16 - 26.02.16
    Spoiler: 



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