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Thread: Bots on human/player side being utterly useless

  1. #11
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    I've had some luck with just spamming my ping button whenever I want the bots to do something.

    See the bots moving into a lane for a tower push? Just start spam pinging the tower that needs to be defended and within 5-10 seconds all of your bots should TP in.
    I've only seen this once but I had my ES bot initiate like a pro when I pinged an enemy bot a few times. He blinked in and proceeded to land everything on the enemy team with which the rest of my bot allies followed up. I haven't been able to have him do it since so I'm not sure if there were other variables in play there.

    Maybe have the bots assess situations where they should initiate without having the player spell it out for them? *shrug*

  2. #12
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    Yeah, having the same sort of problems, it's like on easy and medium as well, the bots get too turtley and won't help you if you try to initiate, or even gank really. I've also noticed that pinging the enemy sometimes seems to get them to help, but then other times they just run away, leaving you at the mercy of the enemy team, who'll often all tp in to counter gank your face into the dirt. All the while your team is running back to base cause they lost a quarter of their health bar or there's a creep wave getting close to a tower. I think it'd just be nice if there were a few more commands for them like a way to get them to go all in or something. or a way to mark certain enemies as priority. It just seems hard to get the bots on your team to do anything early game, whereas alot of the time the bot team mid will attempt to gank you at lvl 3.

  3. #13
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    Regardless of difficulty (although it seems worse at unfair difficulty), I notice that if I initiate with bot teammates they will turn and run away and leave me to die. In several other instances they will walk just out of range, wait for me to die, and then blink/run in and engage after I'm dead.

    It seems that they could be coded better to recognize the player initiating a team fight and support the player.

  4. #14
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    indeed. another thing I noticed, I don't know whether I should start a new thread for it, but there also seems to be some skills that the bots don't know what to do about or something. For instance just now playing as DS I threw an ion shell onto a creep and TH of the enemy team just trundled over into a corner and stood there and died, didn't try to fight back once. this was on medium. Normally even when he's fleeing if you attack TH he'll either turn to attack you or at least gush.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terin7 View Post
    I really think bot pushing needs to be toned down in the lower difficulties. I have a friend who was new to Dota that we were in a bot game with, and it was really disheartening to see him in a lane trying to get the hang of things when the 5 man 10 minute doom pushes comboed him to death multiple times. They could do that on unfair difficulty, seeing as they get extra gold and experience that would balance out the fact that none of them are farming, but on easy difficulty, they should definitely push much later, or push in smaller groups.
    The problem here is that the bots current pushing behaviour is ridiculously high. If you are new and you don't know how to position yourself or how to farm efficiently, you will find yourself overwhelmed by the constant pack of 5 that the enemy bots tend to create. However, this "tactic" fails every time, because they stay grouped and roam around to gank/push, but they don't achieve anything. They don't push towers efficiently they fail ganks more often than not, they basically are just clumping up for no reason at all. That is why they don't have any kind of farm at the 30min mark. If you abuse that by ricing while the AI is busy screwing around, you will have enough to win the game pretty much alone. Just stay around your team and use them as meat shields. If the enemies jump them, wait until they blew all their stuff on them and clean up afterwards.
    What I wanted to say with my wall of text was that the high pushing priority is actually making the games too easy instead of too hard but I get your point; as a new player they should go easy on you, because you shouldn't have to deal with that just yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLRevan View Post
    If this is all thats different, Im inclined to believe that easy bots may teamfight better depending on what heroes they're using. Lets just say you have tide, sven, lina and tiny on one team. Since they dont bother to avoid overlapping stuns, they're unload everything they've got on a target. LSA+storm bolt+ava+ravage...your hp instantly drops to a point where lina gets triggered to perform her ulti. Nearly instant death, which may give the impression that easy bots are actually more brutal, although in most cases the outcome would be the same. This would really depend on what heroes the bots are actually using.
    If they blow all skills at once, it means they actually teamfight worse. The situation that you have described seems more like a gank, but let's go on. Sure, you will get nuked hard and on lower levels, you will most likely die but if you are farmed, you survive the 2 or 3 seconds and you will run away. Let's stick to your example assuming we are Antimage: At lower levels, you won't get away on all difficulty settings, because they got too much nuke and stun between them 3. At later stages there is a difference: You will get beefy with Manta and Heart and if they catch you on easy, they will blow everything on you instantly. You will most likely survive this and blink away or even pop Manta and try to retaliate depending on your HP. On higher difficulties, they will just stunlock you and you are dealing with 6+ seconds stun here which is more than enough to bring you down with Svens and Tinys autoattacks.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joelicus View Post
    indeed. another thing I noticed, I don't know whether I should start a new thread for it, but there also seems to be some skills that the bots don't know what to do about or something. For instance just now playing as DS I threw an ion shell onto a creep and TH of the enemy team just trundled over into a corner and stood there and died, didn't try to fight back once. this was on medium. Normally even when he's fleeing if you attack TH he'll either turn to attack you or at least gush.
    That's because DS isn't implemented as an AI right now. The AI doesn't know how to handle most heroes, because it doesn't know their spells. This will get better when more heroes get bots.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karyoplasma View Post
    If they blow all skills at once, it means they actually teamfight worse. The situation that you have described seems more like a gank, but let's go on. Sure, you will get nuked hard and on lower levels, you will most likely die but if you are farmed, you survive the 2 or 3 seconds and you will run away. Let's stick to your example assuming we are Antimage: At lower levels, you won't get away on all difficulty settings, because they got too much nuke and stun between them 3. At later stages there is a difference: You will get beefy with Manta and Heart and if they catch you on easy, they will blow everything on you instantly. You will most likely survive this and blink away or even pop Manta and try to retaliate depending on your HP. On higher difficulties, they will just stunlock you and you are dealing with 6+ seconds stun here which is more than enough to bring you down with Svens and Tinys autoattacks.
    They teamfight worse based on the normal standards we understand in Dota, that is true. Everything you say is correct. But what im talking about is in conjunction with the bots ridiculously high penchant for pushing. Quite often, they push to the point where you cant ignore them, especially when allied bots are the ones taking that lane and not a human player.

    The reason why what im describing sounds like a gank is that it probably is. When you move to a lane to defend, often the bots may immediately decide to initiate and kill you the moment you enter their vision, turning a push into a broad daylight gank. This is something that is easier to avoid and not as often seen in an all-human match, because of slower reaction time and lack of machine coordination, even easier if you are farmed up with survivability items as you say. Dont forget that im also putting this into context, for when certain heroes are used by AI, for example Tide, Lina, ES, CM, Tiny (though tiny does tend to be terrible at teamfights or even using his stun). This is especially so when Lina is in the mix, since the end of many such push-turn-ganks end with laguna blade, which drastically cuts the time and hp margin you need to survive stuns.

    As for your allied bots, they dont seem to exhibit this behaviour most of the time, if at all. I assume its because since they work as a super-coordinated killteam when in a team of 5, when they are 3 or less they act like they're missing a member and dont do ANYTHING when faced with a teamfight (most of the time anyway). Quite often they just run around in circles waiting for allies who dont exist and ignore human players coming to support. Thats not to say the 5-man bot team doesnt sometimes end up confused and run around in circles, but happens more often and consistently with allied bots. The fewer there are on your team, the worse it is.
    Last edited by DLRevan; 01-31-2012 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #18
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    Yeah, same issue for me. I played bots on easy 4 times. I'm new to the game of dota (never played the first one and never played HoN, but I'm lvl 30 in LoL). The first 3 times I got utterly destroyed. The enemy bots would just group up and become a raping/pillaging death machine. My kills would be about the same as deaths in the 7 or 8 range. The 4th time I played easy, my team whooped the other team's ass in 35 minutes. End score was 40-12 lol. I had 2 of those kills. They really didn't even need me. All I did was run around in the jungle trying to get my good items. Razor, Juggernaught, and Sven had the highest KDRs. I posted the end score board so you can see the stats.
    2012-02-02_00001.jpg
    When I played on normal I won my first game and actually contributed with 16-3. In fact, if u took off my 16 kills, the score would have been almost even. Unfortunately, I don't have a screenshot of that game. The bots on normal seem to play much better though.

    Some ideas to make easy more easy:
    1) make it so bots don't form groups of more than 3.
    2) no gold loss when u die
    3) bots never try to get jungle kills or kill Roshan.

    Also, it says "bots don't roam or gank", but I've gotten ganked several times by the easy bots. Maybe I was just out of position pushing a lane solo, but when 4 bots show up and burst you down in 2 seconds I call that a gank. If bots can group up and run around the map there's probably always going to be the possibility of a gank. The only solution I see is making it so they never leave their lane, but that might be too easy. But you could also use my first suggestion and just limit the group to 3 bots or less.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokit View Post
    Some ideas to make easy more easy:
    1) make it so bots don't form groups of more than 3.
    2) no gold loss when u die
    3) bots never try to get jungle kills or kill Roshan.

    Also, it says "bots don't roam or gank", but I've gotten ganked several times by the easy bots. Maybe I was just out of position pushing a lane solo, but when 4 bots show up and burst you down in 2 seconds I call that a gank. If bots can group up and run around the map there's probably always going to be the possibility of a gank. The only solution I see is making it so they never leave their lane, but that might be too easy. But you could also use my first suggestion and just limit the group to 3 bots or less.
    I'm sorry, but DotA is not LoL. The game of DotA definitely has a huge teamfight/pushing aspect, although the bots currently overdo the pushing and teamwork aspect a bit. The bots are supposed to play as similar to humans as possible, and human behaviours include teamfights, losing gold for being killed and jungling/roshing. The differences between easy and higher difficulties should only involve how good the bots are at these things, not if they perform them or not.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MauranKilom View Post
    I'm sorry, but DotA is not LoL.
    Gee, no kidding.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauranKilom View Post
    The game of DotA definitely has a huge teamfight/pushing aspect...
    All moba games do.

    The main problem is that the human/player side bots (on easy) just don't play well at all. #2 and #3 on my list aren't going to change that, so maybe not the best ideas. I think #1 is the best idea out of the 3 for easy mode, but in the end I think making the player's bots more helpful should be the first priority.

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