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Thread: Tutorial vs Coaching

  1. #1
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    [Suggestion] Tutorial vs Coaching

    Hello there,

    i want to advertise a feature to the makers of dota 2: Coaching.

    Right now there are 4 modes of games:

    • matchmaking
    • private
    • tournament
    • tutorial


    we still dont know, what we have to expect from the last two and that's why i would like to provide a system, which could replace the tutorial section and benefit the play of all the other sections.

    What i would like to see, is a coaching system, where two or more players enlist for special games, that aim at improving ones skill of dota.
    One of the players enlists as a coach, the other one as a trainee. At first look the Coaching system should not differ much from a normal game, where one plays (trainee) and the other one spectates (coach).
    On top of that, the coach should be having certain privileges, such as:

    • creating markers/pings for the trainee to see
    • spawning units (heroes, creeps, neutrals, ancients, roshan)
    • teleporting units
    • managing resources (giving gold for certain stages of the game like start (500), core (3000), etc)
    • managing control over units (give the trainee a different hero, control the opposing hero for a demonstration, etc)
    • playback up to 1 minute of gametime ("what could you have improved in the past minute, with proper hero control?")
    • drawing different "range" outlines visible for the trainee for any unit (attackrange, spellrange, fog of war (for juking), exp range)




    The coaching system should consist of a number of scenarios, that simulate different stages of the game and have different goals to be achieved.

    Initially all Stages and Scenarios should be available for everyone, like a tutorial. Everyone can identify his flaws by himself and pick the according chapter of the coaching system.
    If a player however reaches a certain number of reports, he gets "blocked" and loses access to normal mm games and to all stages of coaching except the first one.
    He now has to work his way through the whole "tutorial" and learns things about the game, he might have lacked before.
    He has to complete (not win) a Scenario to progress to the next one and to complete all scenarios of a stage to unluck the next stage. Each scenario can be completed, if the (randomly selected) coach agrees, that you learned, what has to be achieved at that scenario. if not, you have to repeat it, with a different coach. Trainees, can rate the coaches too, to prevent abuse.
    Once a blocked player has achieved the highest stage of the coaching system, he can play mm games again.

    If coaches identify a blocked player, who doesnt need the coaching and destroyed games on purpose, he might get a "normal" ban from mm instead.

    The rating of coaching by their trainees could be similar to a level system with decay, allowing them to coach Stage 1 initially and unlocking further Stages after a certain number of positive ratings by their trainees.

    When queuing up for Coaching games, a trainee will select the stage and scenario, he wants to play. a coach simply selects whether he is available for coaching or not. The coach is then prompted, whether he wants to coach the trainee for the selected scenario. Highly rated coaches might even see further information, such as, report history, trainee ratings etc.
    To improve the match between coach and trainee both should select a set of preferred languages.


    You might argue, that nobody would want to coach unknown players. but i tell you different. i am sick and tired of encountering people, who dont know the slightest thing about the game, every and every match. i would LOVE to spend hours and hours of my time to teach those people in a "controlled environment" how this game can be played. just with the hope of creating ONE more decent match by it. I am sure many other mature and experienced players think the same.

    Stage 1a - Solo Laning
    Scenario 1 - Lasthitting (1 Trainee, 1 Coach):
    Location: midlane
    • the trainee has to achieve a certain score of lasthits during a sequence of 1-3 creepwaves [already implemented in the tutorials]
    • can be repeated with different heroes (melee with qb, range with easy attack animation (sniper), range with hard attack animation (krob)) [already implemented in the tutorials]
    • should be done by the use of attacks mostly, can mention the proper use of aoe spells to farm (prehitting + finishing many creeps with 1 spell)
    • the use of different start items for easier lasthitting (qb, primary stats)
    • no opponents [already implemented in the tutorials]

    Scenario 2 - Lanecontrol (1 Trainee, 1 Coach):
    Location: midlane, shortlane
    • the trainee either has to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponent or outlevel him by 2-3 level [upcoming in the tutorials]
    • he has to employ denies to catch up in farm and exp [upcoming in the tutorials]
    • he can employ creeppulls to deny farm and relocate the creeps (botlane only)
    • he has to harrass his opponent by the use of spells or attacks
    • preparation of a kill by harrassing
    • orbwalking
    • creepaggro
    • ai/coach opponents
    • different hero combinations (range vs melee, melee vs range, orbwalker)
    • the use of different start items for easier harrassment (primary stats, int, boots)

    Scenario 3 - Versus (2 Trainees, 1-2 Coaches)
    Location: sidelane

    • 2 trainees have to play against each other
    • both have to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponent or outlevel him by 2-3 level
    • different hero combinations
    • lanes get swapped after each round
    • the use of different start items for survival, farm and harrassment (stats, regen)

    Stage 1b: Jungeling (dunno where to properly put it, feedback required) - by Direclaw
    (The coach can be easily replaced for a bot tutorial on this one since there is not much info involved.)
    Scenario 1 - Farming Neutrals (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: Jungle
    • Jungling hero (maybe different kinds of junglers axe/ds, chen/enigma, ursa/lycan)
    • farm certain amount of gold in 6 minutes
    • not allowed to die
    • only neutral creeps
    • no ganks
    • Courier avaiable
    • Creep routes
    • Creep stacking/spawnboxes
    • difficulty of neutrals
    • microing summons
    • farming ancients
    • useful items in the jungle (qb, stout, salve, tangos, clarity)

    Scenario 2 - Creepblocking / Counterwarding (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: Jungle
    • Jungling hero
    • farm certain amount of gold in 6 minutes
    • not allowed to die
    • only neutral creeps
    • no ganks
    • Courier avaiable
    • blocking spawns with wards
    • dewarding wards
    • useful items in the jungle (wards, sentries)

    Scenario 3 - Awareness & Farming (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: Jungle
    • Jungling hero
    • farm certain amount of gold in 6 minutes
    • not allowed to die
    • only neutral creeps
    • few ganks
    • Courier available
    • positioning of observer wards
    • watching the minimap while farming
    • knowing where it is save to farm

    Scenario 4 - Awareness & Ganking (1-2 Trainees, 1-2 Coaches)
    Location: Jungle

    • Jungling hero
    • farm certain amount of gold in 6 minutes
    • kill a certain amount of heroes or assist the kills
    • not allowed to die
    • only neutral creeps
    • no ganks
    • Courier avaiable
    • watching the minimap while farming
    • creep pulling
    • knowing when it is a good point to engage on the lane




    Stage 2 - Dual Laning
    Scenario 1 - Hero Combinations (2 Trainees, 1 Coach)
    Location: Sidelane
    • Basic hero combinations should be explained (jugger+rylai, dualstun, babysitters)
    • the trainees have to reach a certain score of lasthits before their opponents or outlevel both by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • sharing regen items
    • timing of spells
    • bodyblocking
    • roles on a lane (farmer, supporter)
    • creepstacking
    • warding against creeppull
    • positioning for better lane coverage
    • ai/coach opponents (solo and dual)


    Scenario 2 - Versus (4 Trainees, 2 Coaches)
    Location: Sidelane
    • the trainees have to reach a certain score of lasthits before their opponents or outlevel both by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • picking combinations according to the short/long lane




    Stage 3 - Ganking
    Scenario 1 - Performing Ganks (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: starting from mid
    • the trainee has to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponents or his team has to outlevel the other team by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • Explaining the need to tip the balance of the game by performing ganks with certain heroes, while still keeping up farm
    • Explaining the rune system
    • Runewarding is prepared
    • bottle
    • ai/coach allies/opponents (5v5, 3v3)


    Scenario 2 - Roaming (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: starting from sidelane
    • the trainee has to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponents or his team has to outlevel the other team by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • Explaining the concept of roaming with the hero and leaving a sololane for a farmer for a certain time
    • Runewarding has to be done by the trainee
    • bottle
    • ai/coach allies/opponents (5v5, 3v3)


    Scenario 3 - Antiganking (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    Location: sidelane/mid
    • the trainee has to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponents or his team has to outlevel the other team by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • the trainee has to defend a certain number of ganks successfully, while keeping up in farm and level
    • the trainee has to employ wards and to raise his mapawareness
    • the trainee has to employ juking when being ganked unprepared
    • positioning against hooks/arrows
    • coach/ai ganker


    Scenario 4 - Versus (2 Trainees, 1-2 Coaches)
    Location: players decision
    Teams: 5v5 (ai/coach filled)
    • the trainee has to reach a certain score of lasthits before his opponents or his team has to outlevel the other team by 2-3 level (average teamlevel)
    • the identity of the opposing trainee is unknown




    Stage 4 - Teamfights
    Scenario 1 - Team Combos (3 Trainees, 1 Coach)
    Location: mid
    Teams: 3v3 (ai/coach filled)
    • ai is pushing mid
    • level is at 6, 11
    • gold per team is at 3000, 6000
    • dagger, forcestaff
    • role of initiators
    • different hero combinations have to be employed to defend the enemies push (ds+enigma+es, void+aa+jakiro)


    Scenario 2 - Countering Combos (3 Trainees, 1 Coach)
    Location: mid
    Teams: 3v3 (ai/coach filled)
    • players are pushing mid
    • level is at 6, 11
    • gold per team is at 3000, 6000
    • pipe, forcestaff, ghostscepter
    • different "easy" combos are approaching mid and have to be defended adequatly
    • key heroes should be advertized: omni, dazzle


    Scenario 3 - Versus (6 Trainees, 2 Coaches)
    Location: mid
    Teams: 3v3
    • first team to push 2 towers wins
    • different combinations have to be played out




    Stage 5 - The Hero
    Scenario 1 - Playstyles (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    • the trainee can pick a set of different heroes from his repertour
    • the trainee learns about the different playstyles and related itembuilds, that can be used for the hero

    example:
    wr
    • support -> meka
    • carry -> mkb/buriza
    • hybrid -> hex/orchid/forcestaff


    Scenario 2 - Special Moves (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)
    • the trainee can pick a set of different heroes from his repertour
    • the trainee learns advanced moves with them
    • placing of ultimates (lich)
    • using aoe vs invisible units
    • using spells across cliffs
    • using impales to stun multiple enemies
    • blinking properly
    • ....




    Stage 6 - The Team
    Scenario 1 - Being the Captain (1 Trainee, 1 Coach)

    • the trainee has to pick different teams vs the coach
    • the trainee gets feedbacks, which picks were wise and which were not
    • the trainee should learn how a proper team is picked

    Scenario 2 - Being the Team (5 Trainees, 1 Coach)
    Teams: 5v5 (ai/coach filled)
    • the team picks their heroes in dialog with each other
    • the coach gives feedback to the picks and advice throughout the game


    Scenario 3 - Beating a Team (10 Trainees, 2 Coaches)
    • two teams of Trainees play a game of Dota against each other
    Last edited by blash365; 07-29-2013 at 03:14 AM.

  2. #2
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    added Stage 4 and further motivation.

  3. #3
    Basic Member BLABLAFU's Avatar
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    And this is why I close pointless threads a lot: So amazing threads like this don't get lost under useless threads.
    Last edited by BLABLAFU; 02-04-2012 at 08:23 AM.

  4. #4
    Basic Member Slaps's Avatar
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    woop +1

  5. #5
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    Im not sure about the whole coaching thing but I would love to see something similar to the tutorials used in starcraft 2. Like there was one where you had to do set tasks using only hotkeys. It's better to use an AI then another human in these situations.

    Incentivize it by giving players whatever game currency the game will use it for completeing the tutorials.

  6. #6
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    you mean the challenges from sc2. yeah those were great.
    but if you read my OP, you will see, that i intended coaching as a solution to deal with reported players, too.

    the important thing is, that players should learn about the game from other players. and it would be even greater, if the game would provide mechanics to do so and also benefits for those, who participate.
    Last edited by blash365; 02-05-2012 at 05:14 AM.

  7. #7
    Basic Member 7_ShininGAngel's Avatar
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    Nice concept.
    I think human coach is much better than an AI coach, cause the scenarios written here can only be done by a real (human) coach.
    I mean afterall, Dota is a teamgame, and not a simple one.

  8. #8
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    I think an important aspect lacking from this thread is how coaches can be matched with players.
    Also, I'm skeptical about rating coaches up - good coaches/players might be ignored because they are unrated.
    Furthermore, letting coaches level-up through stages might be a waste of initial potential and might be demotivating to someone who just wants to teach noobs to play with Leshrac, for example.

    Here's an alternative I had in mind: Steam achievements.

    It is more than likely that Valve is going to add a tonne of achievements for all kind of scenario's in Dota 2 like they did in TF2, and this can be a valid indicator of competence.
    Simply unlocking the "100 Games Played" achievement would allow players to teach simple aspects of the game.
    So could unlocking "Diabolic Pusher" (some ridiculous amount of damage dealt to buildings in a matchmaking game) or "Earth Splitter" (x amount of kills/stuns in one game) and a positive win/lose ratio with Leshrac, be some of the indicators for a good Leshrac player. Allowing them to coach all stages with this hero.

    So imagine a some-what experienced player, who want's to get coached as Leshrac, he can now go to Coach Tab >> Advanced Hero Coaches >> Leshrac, and coaches online with sufficient achievements for this position will be prompted an Accept or Decline message.



    *edit: ps: I wrote "advanced" hero coaches, implying there could be beginner hero coaches. But this would be an awful idea.
    Last edited by cn.white; 02-05-2012 at 01:20 AM.

  9. #9
    Volunteer Moderator slowreflex's Avatar
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    Interesting. I can tell you spent a lot of time on that!

    I'm curious about the interest of coaches though. I'd love to see coaches get some credit somehow for participation in the coaching system (if they are an effective coach).
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  10. #10
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    +1 i would defo sign up as a coach aswell.

    The achievement idea is really good aswell imo, all i can really think off that could be a hindrance would be the language barrier some have, esp. russians since afaik, most dont know english or not willing to learn it, so an option to select language or maybe take the language from the users steamprofile in use

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